Jade TeX backend

[Sebastian Rahtz <s.rahtz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I mentioned a week or so ago that
http://www.tug.org/applications/jadetex/dsssl.pdf contained a PDF of
the DSSSL standard, produced by TeX directly writing PDF. I have
recently updated that, and jadetex itself, if people are
interested. Jadetex now works, so far as I am concerned, for average
documents, with the following caveats:

 - tables are very weak indeed
 - handling all the ISO entities isnt complete, and in some cases i
    have tipped in code from Elsevier packages, which means it wont
    work for you. sorry about that, i will clean in due course to use
    public packages
 - i have my doubts that the breaking rules  are working correctly
  
I note all this because I have just sent off a CD-ROM for pressing
which contains pdftex and jadetex in the state described above. All
members of the TeX Users Group will receive this CD next month, and
others are free to buy it at a small
cost. http://www.tug.org/tex-live.html contains details (not updated
to reflect the final version yet)

If you get this CDROM, on a Linux box life is as a simple as once

 mount /cdrom
 export PATH=/cdrom/bin/i386-linux:$PATH

and then

 jade -t tex -d foo.dsl foo.sgm
 jadetexpdf foo.tex
 acroread foo.pdf

and there is your DSSSL output. Yes, the CD ROM has Win32 binaries for
TeX etc (though not Jade itself, i just threw that on the other day
for Linux and Sparc Solaris 2.5 for my own benefit)

Sebastian Rahtz


 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sat May 10 05:38:13 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:38:05 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus22> 
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Terry Crowley wrote:
> >  In these cases, WYSIWYG would make the interface harder to navigate and
> >  harder to use. In the long run I expect WYSIWYG to gradually become less
> >  and less interesting. Graphical views of documents are important, but
> >  views that are exactly the same as readers are not really so important.
> 
> Wow.  Better put a huge caveat on the above statements.  Whose your target
> user?  

My target user is everybody. Over the long run I expect everybody to
become a full or part-time word processor user. Since children start
using them in primary school these days I would expect them to be
proficient by high school. At that point I expect them to be taught more
advanced document navigation techniques as part of their typing classes
(or *instead of* their typing classes, which will have migrated to
primary school) and their English classes.

> Sure, if it's someone whose writing content all day where the ability to
> control layout easily for the document as a whole is important, the stylesheet
> view is important.  For the other 99% of users, they just want something that
> easily allows them to achieve the effect they're trying to achieve.  Using a
> stylesheet is like programming, and bottom line is that most users of composing
> tools don't want to be programmers.  Using a stylesheet requires planning, and
> most users don't want to plan.  They just want to write their content.  

Let me repeat that I don't see the flaws of WYSIWYG as having anything
to do with stylesheets at all. WYSIWYG is simply not efficient to
navigate and organize for many document structures, especially for
hypertext documents. Since many users, even non-professionals, "live" in
a word processor I expect them to prefer efficient navigational tools
rather than inefficient ones. Thus graphical user interfaces will remain
important but the WYSIWYGness will be secondary.

> Draft
> and preview modes in a word-processor are nothing like structure vs. WYSIWYG
> view.  They're both WYSIWYG views with different trade-offs in resolution vs
> paper fidelity.

As soon as you "compromise paper fidelity" you are moving away from
WYSIWYG. In Word for Windows "Normal" view I cannot see headers,
footers, newspaper columns and some other layout features. In other
words, it isn't really very WYSIWYG at all! That is a recognition that
while I am writing my document I don't want to be distracted by those
things. (Some) Generated content and (some) other advanced stylesheet
features fall into the same category of things that I do not want to be
distracted by.
 
> I absolutely agree that WYSIWYG views can make things much more difficult to
> achieve and difficult for the user to understand (e.g. what's the feedback for
> an arbitrary DIV in a WYSIWYG editor?  What are the operations for manipulating
> content into or out of the DIV?).  But that's the price to pay.

That's the price to pay for what??? When the WYSIWYG view of a document
is an efficient representation of it (which is the case for many simple
documents) then it should be used. When it complicates the interface
rather than simplifying it, WYSIWYG should be tossed, just like anything
else.

 Paul Prescod

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sat May 10 20:44:50 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:48:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705110048.UAA11234@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Stephen J. Tinney <stinney@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Divining mode name
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Precedence: bulk
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Is it possible to tell from within an expression the mode in which the
expression is being evaluated?  I am thinking of something approximating
(if (eq current-mode 'indexing) (do this) (do that)).

 Steve

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sun May 11 14:03:50 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:07:37 +0200 (MET)
Message-Id: 9705112007.ZM19424@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Chris Lilley <Chris.Lilley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: 97May7.104456pdt.26881-1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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On May 7, 10:44am, Greg Kostello wrote:

> Daniel Veillard wrote:

> >   A very simple solution to this problem is to have a multi-view
> > editor.
> > For example in Amaya there is a WYSIWYG view as well as a structure
> > view
> > showing the content.

> IMHO, people who are SGML-literate are more comfortable with structured
> views of documents. Mere mortals(tm) seem frightened and confused by
> structured views.

Yes, perhaps - but the structured view is only presented if one wants it.
The default view (at leas, in Amaya) is the WYSIWYG view that shows the
styles applied to the text. Just like you would see in a CSS-enabled
browser such as NS 4.0 or MSIE 3.0 - except that you can place the cursor
somewhere and start typing.

Also, the structured view is not a "view source". There are no angle
brackets to scare people. The tree structure of the document is exposed
for those that want it, however.

> So my question -- how do you give the power of style sheets to the
> masses?

Actually I think that the Amaya method is quite nice for "the masses/grand
public". Select text, pick a color, pick line spacing etc off palettes.
Amaya inserts an inline STYLE attribute. Want to re-use that look somewhere
else? Amaya lets you give that look a name (which causes it to be made into
a CSS rule, with an automatically generated selector, in the STYLE element in
the head of the document) and you can then choose that name from a list
anytime you want. Which is vastly easier that doing it with tags.

> Multiple views of documents are bound to confuse

Only if they are all presented at once. And as Daniel says:

> > An alternate view also provide an way to see how the document would
> > render on a text terminal.

When authors start getting beat up about the Americans with Disabilities
Act and "your document doesn't work in Lynx" being able to open another
live window to see the text view is very handy - edits in any window
being automatically reflected in the others. Far less confusing than
trying to run multiple browsers *plus* an editor and remembering to hit
reload each time you want to preview.

>  the person who
> just wants to write a document and have it look "correct."

The illusion that what they see is what everyone else sees can be
maintained for the naive user by only opening the WYSIWYG view, which
is the default view in Amaya.

> Sure, the
> power user doesn't mind previewing his or her document to test a script,
> but the power user is trying to solve a very different problem.

The power user wil appreciate not having to "preview" as a separate stage,
but instead getting constant feedback as they edit.

> I think very complex layout, complete with attributed content can be
> provided without forcing the user to think structure, scripts or
> schemes.. ( I know because I worked on such a product in a past life.)

So, tell us more...

> DigitalStyle Corporation                  http://www.digitalstyle.com/

Does DigitalStyle Websuite support CSS by the way? I found something that
looked as if such support might be planned:

http://www.digitalstyle.com/http://www.digitalstyle.com/noframe/other/ssheets.html

But nothing in the features list that said that CSS was supported. Can you
clarify?

- -- 
Chris Lilley, W3C                          [ http://www.w3.org/ ]
Graphics and Fonts Guy            The World Wide Web Consortium
http://www.w3.org/people/chris/              INRIA,  Projet W3C
chris@xxxxxx                       2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
+33 (0)4 93 65 79 87       06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sun May 11 20:03:16 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:06:20 -0700
Message-Id: 199705120006.RAA13127@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Jon Bosak <bosak@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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[Adam Bosworth:]

| 90% of Word users don't use styles because it requires a top down
| systemic model for authoring that doesn't come naturally to them.

Right.  I am as rabid a stylesheet advocate as anyone in the world,
but I believe that this approach is not for the great majority of
users.  I believe that the construction of stylesheets is for advanced
users and professional designers.  The reason that this relatively
small group of people is worth pursuing is because they historically
have been and (I believe) will be responsible for the production of
the great majority of pages, if not by themselves personally then by
workers who are constrained by organizational policy to work with the
typographical treatments that the designers create.  There is nothing
new about this.

Ultimately it may not be the ability of end-user tools to support the
creation of stylesheets that matters, but their ability to process the
stylesheets that they are given.

Jon

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sun May 11 20:29:00 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:32:53 +0200 (MET DST)
Message-Id: 199705120032.CAA26218@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Hakon Lie <howcome@xxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: D1842F5F197CCF118EC808002BB6919A036D9B3B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Adam Bosworth writes:

 > 90% of Word users don't use styles because it requires
 > a top down systemic model for authoring that doesn't come naturally to
 > them.  That doesn't mean that Styles are a bad idea, just that it is
 > hard to show that Styles improve an authoring UI's usability.

Further evidence can be found in [1] which concludes that 

 "Our interpretation of the problems encountered also indicates that they
  may be related to the paper metaphor communicated by the principle of
  WYSIWYG. We claim that the paper metaphor does not communicate any
  understanding of the structure beneath the surface of a digital
  document."

[1] http://internet.adb.gu.se/publications/6/pap.html

- -h&kon

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Mon May 12 12:59:11 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:00:44 -0700
Message-Id: 97May12.100117pdt.26882-1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Greg Kostello <greg_kostello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------C6171C59E7ABAEB85AE1264A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Chris Lilley wrote:

> On May 7, 10:44am, Greg Kostello wrote:
>
> > Daniel Veillard wrote:
>
> > >   A very simple solution to this problem is to have a multi-view
>
> > > editor.
> > > For example in Amaya there is a WYSIWYG view as well as a
> structure
> > > view
> > > showing the content.
>
> > IMHO, people who are SGML-literate are more comfortable with
> structured
> > views of documents. Mere mortals(tm) seem frightened and confused
> by
> > structured views.
>
> Yes, perhaps - but the structured view is only presented if one
> wants it.
> The default view (at leas, in Amaya) is the WYSIWYG view that shows
> the
> styles applied to the text. Just like you would see in a CSS-enabled
>
> browser such as NS 4.0 or MSIE 3.0 - except that you can place the
> cursor
> somewhere and start typing.
>
> Also, the structured view is not a "view source". There are no angle
>
> brackets to scare people. The tree structure of the document is
> exposed
> for those that want it, however.

I think we are in agreement here.  We have plenty of ways to enable the
power user. The difficulty from a design standpoint is ensuring that the
average user can be productive.

>
>
> > So my question -- how do you give the power of style sheets to the
>
> > masses?
>
> Actually I think that the Amaya method is quite nice for "the
> masses/grand
> public". Select text, pick a color, pick line spacing etc off
> palettes.
> Amaya inserts an inline STYLE attribute. Want to re-use that look
> somewhere
> else? Amaya lets you give that look a name (which causes it to be
> made into
> a CSS rule, with an automatically generated selector, in the STYLE
> element in
> the head of the document) and you can then choose that name from a
> list
> anytime you want. Which is vastly easier that doing it with tags.

That is certainly a viable approach.

>
>
> > Multiple views of documents are bound to confuse
>
> Only if they are all presented at once. And as Daniel says:
>
> > > An alternate view also provide an way to see how the document
> would
> > > render on a text terminal.
>
> When authors start getting beat up about the Americans with
> Disabilities
> Act and "your document doesn't work in Lynx" being able to open
> another
> live window to see the text view is very handy - edits in any window
>
> being automatically reflected in the others. Far less confusing than
>
> trying to run multiple browsers *plus* an editor and remembering to
> hit
> reload each time you want to preview.
>
> >  the person who
> > just wants to write a document and have it look "correct."
>
> The illusion that what they see is what everyone else sees can be
> maintained for the naive user by only opening the WYSIWYG view,
> which
> is the default view in Amaya.
>
> > Sure, the
> > power user doesn't mind previewing his or her document to test a
> script,
> > but the power user is trying to solve a very different problem.
>
> The power user wil appreciate not having to "preview" as a separate
> stage,
> but instead getting constant feedback as they edit.

That will be possible in some cases and not in others. For example, if
your editor supports DOM, you might want to enable the processing of
scripting features which do not alter the document. However, the editor
might want to disable "document.write" unless in preview mode.

>
>
> > I think very complex layout, complete with attributed content can
> be
> > provided without forcing the user to think structure, scripts or
> > schemes.. ( I know because I worked on such a product in a past
> life.)
>
> So, tell us more...

In a former life, I worked on a product called Pages by Pages Software
(the company is now out of business). Pages was a WYSIWYG  structured
document editor that separated content/structure/style. A user could
create elegant looking documents and simple by changing the style sheet,
change the entire look for you document . It made for great demos, but
it was on the wrong platform (NeXTStep). Needless to say, I'm still a
very strong advocated for stylesheets and for providing people with
great authoring tools.

>
>
> > DigitalStyle Corporation
> http://www.digitalstyle.com/
>
> Does DigitalStyle Websuite support CSS by the way? I found something
> that
> looked as if such support might be planned:
>
> http://www.digitalstyle.com/http://www.digitalstyle.com/noframe/other/ssheets.html
>
>
> But nothing in the features list that said that CSS was supported.
> Can you
> clarify?
>
> --
> Chris Lilley, W3C                          [ http://www.w3.org/ ]
> Graphics and Fonts Guy            The World Wide Web Consortium
> http://www.w3.org/people/chris/              INRIA,  Projet W3C
> chris@xxxxxx                       2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
> +33 (0)4 93 65 79 87       06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Kostello                        mailto://kostello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
DigitalStyle Corporation                   http://www.digitalstyle.com/
10875 Rancho Bernardo Road, Suite 110             voice: (619) 618-2222
San Diego, CA 92127                                 fax: (619) 673-5054
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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adr:10875 Rancho Bernardo Rd., Suite 110;;;San Diego;CA;92127;USA

email;internet:kostello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

tel;work:(619) 673-5050 x122

tel;fax:(619) 673-5054

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- --------------C6171C59E7ABAEB85AE1264A--


 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Mon May 12 13:09:58 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:09:22 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus23> 
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Adam Bosworth wrote:
> 
> I'd have to agree with Terry about this point. I do actually think that
> an increasing percentage of pages will not be authored using WYSIWYG
> tools, but that being said, our experience with Word is consistant with
> Terry's comments. 90% of Word users don't use styles because it requires
> a top down systemic model for authoring that doesn't come naturally to
> them.  That doesn't mean that Styles are a bad idea, just that it is
> hard to show that Styles improve an authoring UI's usability.

The problem with standard word processors is that they penalize you in
several ways for using styles. 

First, the set of predefined styles is either to small (as in the
typical "NORMAL" stylesheet) or they are too large (as in the other
stylesheets). Let's take "contemporary report.dot". I count almost 100
styles, and no idea of context sensitivty so that when I'm in the middle
of a paragraph I am still offered the choice of "Footer Even" and
"Return Address". Furthermore so-called "character styles" are mixed up
with "paragraph styles".

By contrast, I have a whole toolbar dedicated to direct-formatting
features which do not require me scrolling down through 100 styles to
choose a reasonable one.

Also, when I ask to use the "Contemporary Report Template" I get a whole
bunch of information from some "FilmWatch" company which I must manually
delete. I asked for a stylesheet, not someone else's document! If I
stick with the unstructured "Normal" stylesheet I don't have this
problem, but I have to define all of the styles myself.

When I right click on a paragraph, I am given options to change its
font, paragraph style, etc., but not to change its style.

Corel WordPerfect better than Microsoft Word in some of these regards
and they are demonstrating a leadership in SGML implementation that will
be difficult for Microsoft to catch in the coming Days Of XML. I hope
that Corel and Microsoft give their repective divisions the funds they
needs to figure out some of these subtle usability issues and I hope
that the product managers for these products have the will to help their
users improve their productivity.

 Paul Prescod

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Mon May 12 14:07:06 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:13:19 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus24> 
From: Vivek Agrawala <vivek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> [Adam Bosworth:]
> 
> | 90% of Word users don't use styles because it requires a top down
> | systemic model for authoring that doesn't come naturally to them.


I agree that many users of MS Word don't use styles, but is it only
because the concept of 'styles' doesn't come naturally to them?

The main problem, in my opinion, is that MS Word doesn't make the
use of styles as easy as 'direct formatting'. There are buttons
for Bold, Italics & Underlining  -- but these don't use Character
Styles.  Also, there is just one list box of styles without any
classification (eg, Paragraph styles, Character styles, etc.).

Another point is that it is very hard to develop 'general purpose'
style-sheets (.dot) that are easy to use.

Modular document templates, coupled with Wizards that let users
select the style-sheet features they need would really improve
the use of styles.

- -- Vivek Agrawala, Ph.D.
Siemens Corporate Research, Inc.	email: vivek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Mon May 12 14:31:42 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:29:42 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus25> 
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Here's another way to think of this stylesheet issue. The more "casual"
a user you are, the less design knowledge you are likely to have. Thus
if you are smart you are MORE likely to use a stylesheet for any
document where formatting is important. Tragically, most people think
that they are design experts and standard word processors encourage them
in that belief by making it overly easy to use physical formatting.

 Paul Prescod



 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Mon May 12 15:45:42 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:49:46 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705121949.PAA07576@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: DSSSList Owner <dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Cross-posting to DSSSList plus other lists
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Several messages over the past few days have been posted to the
DSSSList and to another list -- in this case www-style@xxxxxx, but the
name or nature of the "other" list is not important.  Because the
DSSSList is only open to subscribers, messages on the cross-posted
thread that are from subscribers to the DSSSList have been posted to
the DSSSList, but messages sent by people on the "other" list have
been bouncing.  The effect for people who are on only one of the two
lists is that they are hearing only half the conversation.

When you choose to cross-post messages, please be aware of the effect
cross-posted threads have on the people -- both those who reply and
the list subscribers -- who are not on both lists.

Regards,


Tony Graham
=======================================================================
Tony Graham, Consultant
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                         Phone: 301-231-6931
6010 Executive Blvd., Suite 608                     Fax:   301-231-6935
Rockville, MD USA 20852                e-mail: tgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=======================================================================


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 04:56:23 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:54:02 +0000 (GMT)
Message-Id: 199705140854.IAA29330@xxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Christopher Walsh <christop@xxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Bug in Jade?
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Hi there,

I am having some difficulties getting to grips with this seemingly
erratic aspect of Jade's behavior:

I have a two-stage process using jade:

Step 1: jade -d stageone.dsl -t sgml source.sgml > intermediate.sgml
Step 2: jade -d stagetwo.dsl -t sgml intermediate.sgml > output.sgml

Running these two commands one after another from the UNIX command
line, I get no problems.

However, if I try to pipe them:

jade -d stageone.dsl -t sgml source.sgml | jade -d stagetwo.dsl -t sgml > output.sgml

I get an error of the following nature:

jade:<OSFD>0:2:0:W: cannot generate system identifier for public text "-//SCO//DTD conversion//EN"

Funnily enough, this problem only started after I began using PUBLIC doctype
declarations. When I use SYSTEM <filename>, everything works OK.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Is it a known bug in Jade? Is there
something obvious I'm missing?

Thanks in advance,

Chris
- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CHRIS WALSH [christop@xxxxxxx] \ "Permissive society?
 Technical Author                \  It doesn't exist. 
 SCO Client Integration Division  \  I should know, I've looked for it."
 Vision Park, Cambridge, UK        \                --Rigsby
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 06:08:28 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:56:53 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970514095653.00b10580@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Bug in Jade?
In-Reply-To: Bug in Jade?
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Precedence: bulk
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You need to add

 -c catalog

to your second Jade command.

At 08:54 14/05/97 +0000, Christopher Walsh wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>I am having some difficulties getting to grips with this seemingly
>erratic aspect of Jade's behavior:
>
>I have a two-stage process using jade:
>
>Step 1: jade -d stageone.dsl -t sgml source.sgml > intermediate.sgml
>Step 2: jade -d stagetwo.dsl -t sgml intermediate.sgml > output.sgml
>
>Running these two commands one after another from the UNIX command
>line, I get no problems.
>
>However, if I try to pipe them:
>
>jade -d stageone.dsl -t sgml source.sgml | jade -d stagetwo.dsl -t sgml >
output.sgml
>
>I get an error of the following nature:
>
>jade:<OSFD>0:2:0:W: cannot generate system identifier for public text
"-//SCO//DTD conversion//EN"


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 12:10:25 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705141614.MAA02219@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: tree-after
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Precedence: bulk
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I notice that there is a tree-before procedure but no tree-after function.
I can't yet find an elegant, efficient way to code it. It's only ten minutes
of work but if there is a Better Way then I would rather know it, even if it
isn't implemented yet so that I get in good habits.

 Paul Prescod


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 12:14:39 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:18:28 MET-1MEST
Message-Id: AF511C1292@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Ubik Sven <UBIK@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Application flow object classes
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I found that it is possible in DSSSL to declare application flow
object classes (clause 12.4.3, production 178). The new class is
expected to be in an external entity pointed to by a public 
identifier.

Is there any specification of how the formatting behavior of 
application flow object classes can be specified? Is there any DSSSL 
implementation that handles application flow object classes?

Sven Ubik          

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sven Ubik                      Faculty of Mechanical Engineering
                               Czech Technical University
E-mail:  ubik@xxxxxxxxxxxx     Technicka 4, Prague 6, 166 07
         ubik@xxxxxxx          Czech Republic
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 13:03:04 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:07:12 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705141707.NAA05791@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Application flow object classes
In-Reply-To: AF511C1292@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> Is there any specification of how the formatting behavior of 
> application flow object classes can be specified? Is there any DSSSL 
> implementation that handles application flow object classes?

Probably all of them will handle this, but each in their own way. In 
Jade you do it through C++ code added to each back-end.

 Paul Prescod


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 22:44:35 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:33:06 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970515023306.01427b04@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after
In-Reply-To: tree-after
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At 12:14 14/05/97 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote:
>I notice that there is a tree-before procedure but no tree-after function.
>I can't yet find an elegant, efficient way to code it. It's only ten minutes
>of work but if there is a Better Way then I would rather know it, even if it
>isn't implemented yet so that I get in good habits.

Try this (from my XML xpointer implementation):

(define (tree-after nl)
  (node-list-map (lambda (snl)
		   (let ((pa (parent snl)))
		     (if (node-list-empty? pa)
			 (empty-node-list)
			 (node-list (subtree (follow snl))
				    (tree-after pa)))))
		 nl))


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Wed May 14 23:20:24 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:20:46 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus26> 
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after and other miscellany
In-Reply-To: tree-after and other miscellany
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Thanks James. I wasn't asking you to do my my work for me but since you
had already coded it that's great. Is there a reason that there is a
tree-before and not a tree-after?

Also, a couple of things like that have been nagging me:

#1. I can't quite figure out the logic of may procedures that take a
singleton node-list (snl) vs. optional singleton node-list (osnl). For
instance (child-number ) takes a snl, but (gi ) takes an osnl. Also, why
couldn't functions that require a node-list have an optional node-list
that defaults to the list returned by the (current-node) function. I
find it a real pain to remember which is which. It is only in writing
this email that I figured out the "trick" of which require node-list
arguments (as opposed to snls or osnls) are those that can return
node-lists. I also wonder why functions like (parent ...) return a
mapping over a node-list instead of just a node-list. There are easy
ways for turning a node-list procedure into a mapping over a node-list
and the most common usage seems to be (parent (current-node)).

For those who are not very familiar with DSSSL all I am asking is why I
have to type:

(element number-it (literal (attribute-string "FOO" (parent
(current-node)))))

instead of 

(element number-it (literal (attribute-string "FOO" (parent)))) 

Not earth shaking stuff.

#2. Why can't construction rules have multiple construct-expressions in
them?

I would like to type:

(element note (make paragraph (literal "NOTE"))
		(process-children))

rather than

(element note 
    (sosofo-append
	(make paragraph (literal "NOTE")
	(process-children)))

 Paul Prescod

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 08:44:38 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:33:10 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970515123310.01419160@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after and other miscellany
In-Reply-To: tree-after and other miscellany
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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At 23:20 14/05/97 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote:
>Thanks James. I wasn't asking you to do my my work for me but since you
>had already coded it that's great. Is there a reason that there is a
>tree-before and not a tree-after?

The main application I foresaw for tree-before was for doing numbering that
couldn't be done using the built-in numbering procedures:

(node-list-count
  (select-elements
    (tree-before (current-node))
    'whatever)))

Obviously tree-after isn't useful for this sort of thing.  What are you
using it for?

>Also, a couple of things like that have been nagging me:
>
>#1. I can't quite figure out the logic of may procedures that take a
>singleton node-list (snl) vs. optional singleton node-list (osnl). For
>instance (child-number ) takes a snl, but (gi ) takes an osnl.

Generally the logic is to make the argument an optional singletion node-list
if there's something reasonable for it to return when the argument is empty
node-list.  It might have been more consistent for the numbering functions
to take an optional singleton node-list and return #f when the node-list is
empty.

> Also, why
>couldn't functions that require a node-list have an optional node-list
>that defaults to the list returned by the (current-node) function.

It doesn't make sense for a lot of them (for example, node-list-rest).
Allowing it would just tend to conceal errors.  However for some of them it
definitely does make sense and ought to be allowed: the example you gave of
(parent) is the most obvious case (and in fact Jade does default the
argument of parent).

>It is only in writing
>this email that I figured out the "trick" of which require node-list
>arguments (as opposed to snls or osnls) are those that can return
>node-lists. I also wonder why functions like (parent ...) return a
>mapping over a node-list instead of just a node-list. 

Saying that the function returns the mapping over the node-list just has the
effect of allowing the argument node-list to contain more than one node.
This means that I can say, for example,

(children (q-element 'FOO))

to get all the children of FOO elements, rather than having to say

(node-list-map children (q-element 'FOO))

It doesn't change the behaviour if the argument consists of zero or one nodes.

>There are easy
>ways for turning a node-list procedure into a mapping over a node-list
>and the most common usage seems to be (parent (current-node)).

Huh? Allowing the argument to default to (current-node) doesn't prevent
allowing the argument node-list to contain more than one node.

>#2. Why can't construction rules have multiple construct-expressions in
>them?

This wouldn't work with query-construction-rules because of the optional
priority expression, and I didn't want query-construction-rules to be
different from the other kinds of construction rules.  I think I would
probably be inclined now to accept a difference with
query-construction-rules for the sake of convenience in the other kinds or rule.

James


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 12:12:56 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:40:04 -0400
Message-Id: <bogus27> 
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after and other miscellany
In-Reply-To: tree-after and other miscellany
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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James Clark wrote:
> The main application I foresaw for tree-before was for doing numbering that
> couldn't be done using the built-in numbering procedures:
> 
> (node-list-count
>   (select-elements
>     (tree-before (current-node))
>     'whatever)))

Okay, neat. One question: is Jade's implementation of these "combined
node-list procedures". (e.g. select-elements of tree-before) lazy? Are
there any combinations of procedures from node-lists to node-lists that
are not lazy?
 
> Obviously tree-after isn't useful for this sort of thing.  What are you
> using it for?

I need to find the place to make a "next-button" on a web page.
ACTUALLY, I think I would rather do this using some kind of sosofo
manipulation function, but I don't think that's possible. In other words
I would like to find all of the sosofos with the "web-page" label and do
some kind of

(apply sosofo-append 
	(sosofo-map 
		(lambda (x) 
			(sosofo-append
				x
				(next-button (sosofo-ifollow x))
				(prev-button (sosofo-ipreced x))
				(up-button (sosofo-ancestor SCROLL x))))
		(select-sosofos (process-children) 'web-page)))

Then, just by changing labels, I could totally restructure the web site
(e.g. make it all one scroll or many small scrolls). The current DSSSL
way works fine, but in my mind the code above more accurately reflects
the structure of what I am trying to do. I want to make a minimally
invasive web page creation library that doesn't require you to make
calls to my (next-button) and (prev-button) functions in your
construction rules and doesn't require you to "register" the names of
the elements you intend to break pages on. Right now I require the
"registration" of element names.
 
 Paul Prescod

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 13:23:24 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:24:52 -0700
Message-Id: 97May15.102539pdt.26882-1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Greg Kostello <greg_kostello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------CE1FAC6029FDF8B741CD2E17
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Paul Prescod wrote:

> Terry Crowley wrote:
> > >  In these cases, WYSIWYG would make the interface harder to
> navigate and
> > >  harder to use. In the long run I expect WYSIWYG to gradually
> become less
> > >  and less interesting. Graphical views of documents are
> important, but
> > >  views that are exactly the same as readers are not really so
> important.
> >
> > Wow.  Better put a huge caveat on the above statements.  Whose
> your target
> > user?
>
> My target user is everybody. Over the long run I expect everybody to
>
> become a full or part-time word processor user. Since children start
>
> using them in primary school these days I would expect them to be
> proficient by high school. At that point I expect them to be taught
> more
> advanced document navigation techniques as part of their typing
> classes
> (or *instead of* their typing classes, which will have migrated to
> primary school) and their English classes.
>
> > Sure, if it's someone whose writing content all day where the
> ability to
> > control layout easily for the document as a whole is important,
> the stylesheet
> > view is important.  For the other 99% of users, they just want
> something that
> > easily allows them to achieve the effect they're trying to
> achieve.  Using a
> > stylesheet is like programming, and bottom line is that most users
> of composing
> > tools don't want to be programmers.  Using a stylesheet requires
> planning, and
> > most users don't want to plan.  They just want to write their
> content.
>
> Let me repeat that I don't see the flaws of WYSIWYG as having
> anything
> to do with stylesheets at all. WYSIWYG is simply not efficient to
> navigate and organize for many document structures, especially for
> hypertext documents. Since many users, even non-professionals,
> "live" in
> a word processor I expect them to prefer efficient navigational
> tools
> rather than inefficient ones. Thus graphical user interfaces will
> remain
> important but the WYSIWYGness will be secondary.

I find it interesting that you would assert that statement which is
contrary to the evolution of document generation tools over the last
decade. As computers and software has become more powerful, document
authoring tools have become more and more WYSIWYG. Sure some people want
to be able to edit in draft mode, but people now always have the option
of editing in full WYSIWYG mode. While the tech-doc market may require
function over form, the office-document market has moved in the opposite
direction.

IMHO, if DSSSL moves in a direction which precludes the ability to
easily and efficiently author in a WYSIWYG mode,  then I believe in is
unlikely to be adopted.

>
>
> > Draft
> > and preview modes in a word-processor are nothing like structure
> vs. WYSIWYG
> > view.  They're both WYSIWYG views with different trade-offs in
> resolution vs
> > paper fidelity.
>
> As soon as you "compromise paper fidelity" you are moving away from
> WYSIWYG. In Word for Windows "Normal" view I cannot see headers,
> footers, newspaper columns and some other layout features. In other
> words, it isn't really very WYSIWYG at all! That is a recognition
> that
> while I am writing my document I don't want to be distracted by
> those
> things. (Some) Generated content and (some) other advanced
> stylesheet
> features fall into the same category of things that I do not want to
> be
> distracted by.

True, these different modes are a compromise for people with limited
screen real-estate and limited processing power. However, in Page Layout
mode, the standard mode of operation for many users, headers and footers
are always displayed. For some generated content (such as a Table of
Contents) computers are too inefficient to effectively display WYSIWYG
documents. For scripted documents, which change the documents content or
structure, WYSIWYG may be inappropriate. However, for stylistic
documents, WYSIWYG is entirely approprate.

>
>
> > I absolutely agree that WYSIWYG views can make things much more
> difficult to
> > achieve and difficult for the user to understand (e.g. what's the
> feedback for
> > an arbitrary DIV in a WYSIWYG editor?  What are the operations for
> manipulating
> > content into or out of the DIV?).  But that's the price to pay.

There are ways to give users visual cues to changes in structure. For
example, section break is used in Word and a visual component can be
displayed if desired.

>
> That's the price to pay for what??? When the WYSIWYG view of a
> document
> is an efficient representation of it (which is the case for many
> simple
> documents) then it should be used. When it complicates the interface
>
> rather than simplifying it, WYSIWYG should be tossed, just like
> anything
> else.
>
>  Paul Prescod

I have been around long enough to remember when people said that images
could not  and should not be shown in a editor. They are too inefficient
and they get in the way.  Nor should we show different fonts, nor
multiple columns, nor fractional point fonts, headers, footer, etc.,
etc. Now, of course, these are standard features on modern word
processors. IMHO, this is a step forward, not a step backwards.

If you want different views of documents (draft, structured, hyperlinks
or otherwise) that's great. I think the word processors could provide a
better way to navigate through documents. Tools are evolving to give you
the power you want. However, I contend, that the move to WYSIWYG is not
only here to stay, but is evolving.

Greg Kostello

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 19:03:25 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:07:23 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <bogus29> 
From: John Fieber <jfieber@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: make element and white space
In-Reply-To: 
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Precedence: bulk
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An input file contains:

  <goober>la de da</goober>

and a dsssl stylesheet contains:

  (element goober (make element gi: "peanut" (process-children)))

and the output from jade using -t sgml is:

  <peanut>
  la de da
  </peanut>

but I want:

  <peanut>la de da</peanut>

Have I missed something important and/or obvious?

Thanks,

- -john


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 19:12:44 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:13:30 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705152313.TAA13320@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Tony Graham <tgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: What is the "entity-ref" flow object? (was: Linebreaks and entities in -t SGML stylesheets)
In-Reply-To: 2.2.32.19970425162616.0073aef8@xxxxxxxxxx
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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James Clark writes:
 > At 09:00 25/04/97 -0400, Norman Walsh wrote:
...
 > >How can I ouput character entities in my stylesheet?  There must be something
 > >I'm not understanding about the interactions of DTDs and stylesheets in
 > >Jade at the moment.  If I include (literal "&nbsp;"), I'm surprised that
 > >jade wants to interpret that entity reference.  What am I missing?
 > 
 > Remember that a DSSSL style sheet is an SGML document.  It gets parsed as an
 > SGML document before the DSSSL engine sees it.  Either use the entity-ref
 > flow object, or wrap a CDATA marked section around the instance part of your
 > stylesheet.

What is the "entity-ref" flow object?  I couldn't find it in the
standard, even after searching the electronic version at
http://occam.sjf.novell.com:8080/dsssl/dsssl96.

Regards,


Tony Graham
=======================================================================
Tony Graham, Consultant
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                         Phone: 301-231-6931
6010 Executive Blvd., Suite 608                     Fax:   301-231-6935
Rockville, MD USA 20852                e-mail: tgraham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
=======================================================================


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 19:46:55 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:51:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705152351.TAA13985@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: What is the "entity-ref" flow object? (was: Linebreaks and entities in -t SGML stylesheets)
In-Reply-To: 199705152313.TAA13320@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> What is the "entity-ref" flow object?  I couldn't find it in the
> standard, even after searching the electronic version at
> http://occam.sjf.novell.com:8080/dsssl/dsssl96.

Jade has some non-standard extensions. Check the Jade page under
"SGML Transormations" for more information.

 Paul Prescod


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 20:36:04 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:39:02 -0400
Message-Id: 3.0.1.32.19970515203902.006a5d24@xxxxxxxxxx
From: G. Ken Holman <gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: What is the "entity-ref" flow object? (was: Linebreaks and entities in -t SGML stylesheets)
In-Reply-To: 199705152313.TAA13320@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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At 19:13 97/05/15 -0400, Tony wrote:
>What is the "entity-ref" flow object?  I couldn't find it in the
>standard, even after searching the electronic version at
>http://occam.sjf.novell.com:8080/dsssl/dsssl96.

 From "transform.htm" in the JADE deliverable:

entity-ref 
     This is an atomic flow object that results in an entity reference.
     It supports the following non-inherited characteristic: 

     name 
          The name of the entity. 

.......... Ken


- --
G. Ken Holman            mailto:gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Crane Softwrights Ltd.  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com
1605 Mardick Court, Box 266,         V: +1(613)489-0999
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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 21:33:09 1997 EDT
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:34:54 -0400
Message-Id: 3.0.1.32.19970515213454.006cd78c@xxxxxxxxxx
From: G. Ken Holman <gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
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DSSSL Training Course in June 1997

ISOGEN INTERNATIONAL CORP. will offer Crane Softwrights Ltd.'s "Practical
DSSSL Formatting Using JADE" course starting Monday, June 16, 1997 and
running until Wednesday, June 18.

To register or for more information, please contact: 

Mike Petree
phone:  (214)953-0004 x102
fax:    (214)953-3152
e-mail: learn@xxxxxxxxxx

......... Ken

p.s. This is the one and only posting of information for this course at
this date and time that is being distributed on this list.


- --
G. Ken Holman            mailto:gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Crane Softwrights Ltd.  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com
1605 Mardick Court, Box 266,         V: +1(613)489-0999
Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0         F: +1(613)489-0995
PGP Privacy: http://www.cyberus.ca/~holman/gkholman.pgp

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 22:22:21 1997 EDT
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:27:24 -0700
Message-Id: 9705152127.AA22058@xxxxxxxxx
From: John_Eadie <jme@xxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
In-Reply-To: DSSSL and WYSIWYG Editing
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 |> a word processor I expect them to prefer efficient navigational
 |> tools
 |> rather than inefficient ones. Thus graphical user interfaces will
 |> remain
 |> important but the WYSIWYGness will be secondary.
 |
 |I find it interesting that you would assert that statement which is
 |contrary to the evolution of document generation tools over the last
 |decade. As computers and software has become more powerful, document
 |authoring tools have become more and more WYSIWYG. Sure some people want
 |to be able to edit in draft mode, but people now always have the option
 |of editing in full WYSIWYG mode. While the tech-doc market may require
 |function over form, the office-document market has moved in the opposite
 |direction.
 |
 |IMHO, if DSSSL moves in a direction which precludes the ability to
 |easily and efficiently author in a WYSIWYG mode,  then I believe in is
 |unlikely to be adopted.

I've only been a lurker to this point, but I must say that
I agree with Terry.  I'd say that users in general are getting
culturalized to structure (will expect to see and edit structure
despite WYSIWYG display), but bottom line, WYSIWYG will
continue to rule in both markets.  It sells.

`Acculturated', perhaps?

 |If you want different views of documents (draft, structured, hyperlinks
 |or otherwise) that's great. I think the word processors could provide a
 |better way to navigate through documents. Tools are evolving to give you
 |the power you want. However, I contend, that the move to WYSIWYG is not
 |only here to stay, but is evolving.

Exactly.

- -jme
- --
John Eadie (JE46) COMPUTING ART Inc ~ since 1982
(416) 287-6811 -or- (604) 922-5104 FAX (604) 922-5194
klee wyck Cottage, 120 Keith Road, West Vancouver BC V7T 1L3

`The monks who did not buy printing presses are now making wine.  
 In the years ahead, some of us will make the same choice'  
  - Steve Cherry, ELSEVIER, 1992

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Thu May 15 22:30:56 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:31:26 -0400
Message-Id: sheets)
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
In-Reply-To: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
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Ken, where is the course?

 Paul Prescod

G. Ken Holman wrote:
> 
> DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
> 
> ISOGEN INTERNATIONAL CORP. will offer Crane Softwrights Ltd.'s "Practical
> DSSSL Formatting Using JADE" course starting Monday, June 16, 1997 and
> running until Wednesday, June 18.
> 
> To register or for more information, please contact:
> 
> Mike Petree
> phone:  (214)953-0004 x102
> fax:    (214)953-3152
> e-mail: learn@xxxxxxxxxx
> 
> ......... Ken
> 
> p.s. This is the one and only posting of information for this course at
> this date and time that is being distributed on this list.
> 
> --
> G. Ken Holman            mailto:gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Crane Softwrights Ltd.  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com
> 1605 Mardick Court, Box 266,         V: +1(613)489-0999
> Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0         F: +1(613)489-0995
> PGP Privacy: http://www.cyberus.ca/~holman/gkholman.pgp
> 
>  DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 00:35:59 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:24:35 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970516042435.01479038@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after and other miscellany
In-Reply-To: tree-after and other miscellany
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At 10:40 15/05/97 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote:
>One question: is Jade's implementation of these "combined
>node-list procedures". (e.g. select-elements of tree-before) lazy?

Jade doesn't implement tree-before.

In general Jade's implementation tries pretty hard to be lazy.

>Are
>there any combinations of procedures from node-lists to node-lists that
>are not lazy?

node-list-reverse is maybe less lazy than you might expect, because Jade's
grove implementation doesn't have backwards pointers; it is only lazy with
node-list-ref or node-list-length.

If you want to know precise details, you'll have to RTFS.

James


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 00:56:26 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:44:57 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970516044457.0146c7b0@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: MathML and DSSSL
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Has anybody looked at MathML (http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/TR/WD-math/) to see
to what extent it is implementable with DSSSL's current set of math flow
objects?

James


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 01:04:51 1997 EDT
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:09:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: sheets)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: make element and white space
In-Reply-To: 2.2.32.19970516042422.0148cc14@xxxxxxxxxx
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, James Clark wrote:

> At 18:07 15/05/97 -0500, John Fieber wrote:
> >and the output from jade using -t sgml is:
> >
> >  <peanut>
> >  la de da
> >  </peanut>
> >
> >but I want:
> >
> >  <peanut>la de da</peanut>
> >
> >Have I missed something important and/or obvious?
> 
> Your two fragments are equivalent in SGML because of the rules about
> ignoring REs.

Alas, that detail is lost on most web browsers.  :(

- -john


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 06:47:50 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:51:23 -0400
Message-Id: 199705161051.GAA00253@localhost
From: David Megginson <dmeggins@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: tree-after and other miscellany
In-Reply-To: 2.2.32.19970516042435.01479038@xxxxxxxxxx
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James Clark writes:

 > If you want to know precise details, you'll have to RTFS.

...where the "F" almost certainly stands for "Friendly."


All the best,


David

- -- 
David Megginson                 ak117@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Microstar Software Ltd.         dmeggins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
University of Ottawa            dmeggins@xxxxxxxxxx
        http://www.uottawa.ca/~dmeggins

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 08:05:14 1997 EDT
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:10:03 +0200
Message-Id: 3.0.1.32.19970516141003.00bd68c8@xxxxxxxx
From: Geir Ove Gronmo <geirog@xxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Q:How to recognize processing instructions?
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Hello,

Is there a way to recognize processing-instructions and generate sosofos
from them (at their position in the SGML instance)? 

Lets say that I've got "<?mypi string>" in my SGML instance. How can I then
generate a sosofo from this PI (in this case a sequence flow-object)? And
is there a way to get hold of its content?

What I'm looking for is something like this fictional "pi-construction-rule":

(pi mypi
   (make sequence
      (literal "Found a PI: ")
      (process-pi-content)))

I haven't found anything about this in the standard. So how can this be done?

Regards,

Geir Ove
	
- ------------------  Geir Ove Grønmo  ------------------
  STEP Infotek as, Stanseveien 21, 0902 Oslo, Norway
      Phone: +47 22 90 27 36 Fax: +47 22 90 25 99
 [grove@xxxxxxxx | http://www.falch.no/people/geirog]
- -------------------------------------------------------

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 10:15:59 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:14:19 +0000 (GMT)
Message-Id: 199705161414.OAA29507@xxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Christopher Walsh <christop@xxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Processing multiple files with Jade
In-Reply-To: 
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Hi,

I'm using Jade to create a table of contents for a number of HTML files,
and am running into a few problems which make me think I'm missing 
something fundamental.

I start with an sgml file that lists all the HTML files I want to index.
Then I use Jade to create a file that concatenates all the HTML files
into a single file using entities, thus:

<!doctype book system "book.dtd"
[<!ENTITY file1 system "file1.html">
<!ENTITY file2 system "file2.html">]

&file1;
&file2;

This all works fine, and I then go on to process this concatenated file
with Jade to strip out all the H1, H2 and H3s, discard the rest and create
a nice table of contents.

The problem occurs if I use <!DOCTYPE html system "html.dtd"> declarations
in the individual html files (which is obviously a good thing to be doing).

When Jade processes the concatenated document, it quite rightly complains 
that it is seeing DOCTYPE declarations in places where they aren't allowed.

So, am I missing something? How should I be using Jade to collate information
from my multiple html files?

Any ideas most welcome,

Chris

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 CHRIS WALSH [christop@xxxxxxx] \ "Permissive society?
 Technical Author                \  It doesn't exist. 
 SCO Client Integration Division  \  I should know, I've looked for it."
 Vision Park, Cambridge, UK        \                --Rigsby
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 10:33:56 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:38:54 +0200
Message-Id: 3.0.1.32.19970516163854.006e1d44@xxxxxxxx
From: Geir Ove Gronmo <geirog@xxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Processing multiple files with Jade
In-Reply-To: 199705161414.OAA29507@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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At 16:14 16.05.97 +0200, you wrote:

>The problem occurs if I use <!DOCTYPE html system "html.dtd"> declarations
>in the individual html files (which is obviously a good thing to be doing).
>
>When Jade processes the concatenated document, it quite rightly complains 
>that it is seeing DOCTYPE declarations in places where they aren't allowed.

I believe you've got to remove all the DOCTYPE's from the individual
HTML-files. This is because you're just allowed to use one DOCTYPE in an
SGML document. In this case your book-file contains multiple DOCTYPE's.

This situation have occured several times when I've been working with SGML
documents. In those cases I've just used Omnimark og Perl to strip away the
DOCTYPE's.

Btw. does SP/Jade support SUBDOC? In that case maybe you could use SUBDOC? 

Regards,

</Gr0ve>

- ------------------  Geir Ove Grønmo  ------------------
  STEP Infotek as, Stanseveien 21, 0902 Oslo, Norway
      Phone: +47 22 90 27 36 Fax: +47 22 90 25 99
 [grove@xxxxxxxx | http://www.falch.no/people/geirog]
- -------------------------------------------------------

 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist

>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 13:18:24 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:17:52 -0500
Message-Id: 199705161717.MAA02546@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Carla Corkern <carla@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
In-Reply-To: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
Sender: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Ken -

Did anyone tell you that this post was the original blocked post that started the "Let the people decide" discussion?

CC
* From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thu May 15 20:32 CDT 1997
* X-Sender: gkholman@xxxxxxxxxx
* Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:34:54 -0400
* To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
* From: "G. Ken Holman" <gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
* Subject: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
* Mime-Version: 1.0
* 
* DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
* 
* ISOGEN INTERNATIONAL CORP. will offer Crane Softwrights Ltd.'s "Practical
* DSSSL Formatting Using JADE" course starting Monday, June 16, 1997 and
* running until Wednesday, June 18.
* 
* To register or for more information, please contact: 
* 
* Mike Petree
* phone:  (214)953-0004 x102
* fax:    (214)953-3152
* e-mail: learn@xxxxxxxxxx
* 
* ......... Ken
* 
* p.s. This is the one and only posting of information for this course at
* this date and time that is being distributed on this list.
* 
* 
* --
* G. Ken Holman            mailto:gkholman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
* Crane Softwrights Ltd.  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com
* 1605 Mardick Court, Box 266,         V: +1(613)489-0999
* Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0         F: +1(613)489-0995
* PGP Privacy: http://www.cyberus.ca/~holman/gkholman.pgp
* 
*  DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist
* 

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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 13:25:40 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:29:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705161729.NAA01638@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Jade command line
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I would like to do something like this:

<!doctype style-sheet PUBLIC "-//James Clark//DTD DSSSL Style Sheet//EN"[

<!entity % print "IGNORE"> <!-- Should be overriden on command line -->
<!entity % html "IGNORE"> <!-- Should be overriden on command line -->

<![ %print;  [ 
 ...
]]>

<![ %html; [
 ...
]]>

- --
and then use the command line to turn on or off the marked sections. But I
can't figure out how to control the parsing of the stylesheet. 

I would really rather do something like this:

(if *html*
   (define foo .... )
   (define foo .... ))

But that's so far outside the DSSSL syntax that I'm not even really dreaming
about it anymore. =)

 Paul Prescod


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Fri May 16 13:29:54 1997 EDT
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:34:05 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: 199705161734.NAA01907@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Paul Prescod <papresco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
In-Reply-To: DSSSL Training Course in June 1997
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For those who are curious, the course is in Dallas, but Ken was too polite
to post more information about it.

 Paul Prescod


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>From dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  Sat May 17 00:26:42 1997 EDT
Return-Path: dssslist-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:15:07 +0700
Message-Id: 2.2.32.19970517041507.01535dd0@xxxxxxxxxx
From: James Clark <jjc@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: dssslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: DSSSL WWW Enhancements
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I've started putting together a document
(http://www.jclark.com/dsssl/web-dsssl.htm) to describe the enhancements
that I believe are needed for use DSSSL on the Web.  The document is at a
very early stage: it does not yet propose solutions for many of the
requirements that it identifies. I see this as part of the dsssl-o effort;
up to now dsssl-o has concentrated on subsetting the DSSSL standard to
eliminate the parts that are inessential for use on the Web, but now I think
the time is right to start thinking about what extra things are needed.  I
think it's important for the success of DSSSL that the enhancements that are
needed for the Web be standardized soon (whether in ISO, W3C or elsewhere).
I think it will help enormously with this if we can start an active
discussion on this list.

James


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