RE: Generating high-level formatting output

["Didier PH Martin" <martind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Sebastian,

Sebastian said:
 > I see it [XSL] as a new language based on "<>" markups. There are
 > others like DSSSL based on a different syntax (scheme based)
sorry, i think this flies in the face of history. XSL was invented by
a committee, largely DSSSL people, who wanted to make a more
acceptable syntax face on DSSSL. Yes, technically its a new language,
in practice its the DSSSL we know and love, recast.

Didier says:
About the more acceptable syntax maybe. It's not everybody who is
comfortable with a lisp based syntax. About saying that XSL is DSSSL, you
probably mean that it is using the same visual model. ON that part too I am
not so sure. More and more I study the XSL formatting object more and more I
see them as a blend of CSS _and_ DSSSL. There is a high probability, and
this would make sense, that XSL visual model will be nearer to CSS than
DSSSL.

Sebastian said:
 > genetically improved DSSSL. This is what some would us to believe. DSSSL
can
 > become what _we_, as users, decide it will be. There is always ways to
 > propose to ISO (but this time with experiments) the result of a community
 > work.
I suspect thats harder than you think, changing an ISO standard... is
the ISO DSSSL committee meeting at all?

Didier says:
You are probably right on this. Especially if we cannot bring enough
interest to DSSSL among ISO committee. But OpenJade can evolve as an open
de-facto standard for a small community. The community of OpenJade users
(this includes derived products like Ralph browser and my own browser
extensions).

 > Actually the reality of the XSL world is that several individuals or
groups
 > are creating their own XSL implementation. To keep inter-operability,
they
 > have to stick to the "recommendations".
thats unfair. there *is* no XSL Recommendation yet, just a draft, so
its hardly surprising if test implementations differ.

 > The case for OpenJade is different. There is only one DSSSL
implementation:
 > Jade and its new successor OpenJade.
thats a bit hard on Ralph Ferris, so say there is only one DSSSL
implementation! not that Jade *is* an implementation, technically. its
a partial implementation, it would hardly get ISO approval.

 > bazaar. This is not yet the case of any XSL processor. In fact, XSL
 > processors are more controlled by players like Microsoft, Lotus, IBM and
Sun
the XSL processor I suspect most people have used is by James Clark!

 > than it is based on the common effort of a community. OpenJade can become
 > what we want it to become and DSSSL to.
no. you cannot have it both ways. the argument for DSSSL is that it is
a published formal standard. start changing it, and it isnt
DSSSL. OpenDSSSL, maybe. We can beaver away at OpenJade, great, I am
all in favour, but be wary of extending DSSSL

Sebastian said:
 > the best of their knowledge. I cannot say the same thing of the XSL
universe
 > dominated by Microsoft, IBM and Sun (java). In OpenJade, we try to keep
the
 > core code transportable and adapted to other platforms like the different
 > flavor of Linux, Unix, windows. What is common in this diversity is
 > OpenJade.
I dont really see this. XSL is, of course, like DSSSL, portable and
open. controlled by the (fairly evil) W3C members, of course, which is
worrying. and the implementations in Java are also, of course,
portable (Java also being pretty open)

Didier Says:
I disagree with you on saying that Java is pretty open. It is as long as it
is controlled by Sun :-). Off course they have to protect their own
commercial interests. And this is OK, they have to make a living. And I
don't see W3C as evil, only that it is not enough democratic.


Sebastian said:
Sorry to sound like a XSL nerd, but all this talk reminds me of the
other world I live in, TeX. The characteristic attitude there is also
"we are small but we eat organic food and know we are right". I am not
sure its healthy.

Anyway, maybe we should stop this thread. As you know, I am not
anti-DSSSL or Jade, far from it, so best to just get on with OpenJade!

Didier says:
Thanks Sebastian. We know you are not anti-DSSSL or anti-OpenJade, only that
you have to learn what the mainstream may use (I personally think that the
mainstream will use more CSS than XSL). I do not know Tex as well as you do.
But the little I know just showed me that it is more powerful than most
people think it is.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.netfolder.com


 DSSSList info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist