RE: The DSSSList Digest V3 #105

Subject: RE: The DSSSList Digest V3 #105
From: MARK.WROTH@xxxxxxxxxxx (Wroth, Mark)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:42:39 -0700
Various people (partially quoted below) asked about interest in SENG (with a
view towards seeing if there's enough interest in the system to make it
worth the developer (I think I got that right :-) trying to get it released
from its current proprietary limbo.

I see two reasons why I would care:

	1.  A Java based DSSSL processor would make it easier for me to
proliferate the different SGML/XML applications I'm involved with to more
people/platforms.  The Mac is my specific concern, since I don't know of a
Jade build for the Mac (and I'm not in a position to either build one or ask
the people I'm trying to interest in the system to build one).  For this
purpose, implementing at least those portions of the DSSSL standard
implemented by Jade would be desirable/necessary.  It would be even better
if the Java DSSSL processor dealt with everything Jade does (specifically
including the non-standard SGML output sosofos).

	2.  I might be persuaded to switch by implementation of more of the
query and transformation languages.  I say "might" because I can do
everything I need to *at the moment*, but would prefer to do so within the
*standard*, so that I don't tie my users to a specific implementation (in
other words, Jade does the job, at least for now, but I'm not happy that I
have to use non-standard features to do it because I'd rather not build a
system which depends on one implementation).  I _suspect_ that as my
applications grow (if they do), better query capabilities (than currently in
Jade) will be desirable --- but I'll caveat that by admitting that I'm not
even close to understanding all that can be done within Jade's existing
implementation.

In general, of course, if SENG were "better, faster, cheaper" than Jade, I
might be inclined to switch.  But I think the areas I describe above are the
main things that would make me consider adding/switching to SENG.

(BTW, my primary applications are paper output based, with concurrent web
publication. They involve processing documents through several stages of
aggregation and commentary, and have the potential to grow to a research
database.  So I care about the style, query, and transformation aspects of
SGML/XML manipulation, with varying emphasis depending on the moment.  Right
now, the group I'm working with is implementing a multiple document "merge"
process in Java, partially because I don't see an easy way to do it in
DSSSL. )
------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:54:53 -0500
From: Daniel Mahler <dmahler@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: DSSSL engine in LISP? (also Re: html to dsssl)

Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Didier says:
> Good, there is life in the DSSSL world. As a DSSSL user I am happy to see
> that life energy is back among us. As a OpenJade team member, I says, go
for
> it Daniel, having some competition is fun and challenging. So, go for it,
> the OpenJade team will have some competition and some challenge. Don't
wait
> for an approval from the community. Bring the the community the best you
can
> do and let it decide what is the best.

I think you have misunderstood me.
The community interest/approval is not for my benefit.
I am trying to generate the interest,
because of what Alex, SENG's original developer, wrote to me

Alex Milowski wrote:
> 
> Actually, we didn't go out of business.  We were purcharsed by Veo Systems
> which is now Commerce One.  Unfortunately, the DSSSL engine is buried in
> their company and, although not related to their current line of business,
> will probably never surface.  Especially since I no longer work there.
> 
> *If* there was significant interest, I might be able to get it out from
> under their sticky fingers and release it as open source.
> 
> R. Alexander Milowski
alex@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>                Remember: Stressed spelled backwards is desserts.

I have already informed him of my interest
and I believe Brandon has informed him of his.
I do not think that constitutes "significant interest" in Alex's eyes.
So, unless other people are interested,
SENG will remain proprietary and buried,
regardless of what I do.

It is also NOT my intention to compete with OpenJade.
I just have different applications in mind than what Jade was designed
for.
I am more interested
in online EDI and eCommerce applications of DSSSL.
In this context the following points are emphasised:
* query and tranformation facilities over formatting
* easily extensible open architecture
* access to other internet software much of which is written in Java.
* dynamic interactive content
By James Clarke's own messages, these are not the strong points of Jade.
I am also hoping that a JVM DSSSL engine would make it possible
to render documents in existing browsers (using applets, beans or
whatever ...).

I hope that explains why I have been chewing up bandwith on this list.

regards
Daniel


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