RE: [xsl] killing xslt

Subject: RE: [xsl] killing xslt
From: Pieter Reint Siegers Kort <pieter.siegers@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:07:52 -0500
Like David, I would be interested in setting up an open source project but
would prefer using C#, VS.NET 2003, to do the port from Saxon 7.9.1. Not on
my own, of course... :-)

I now have 3 years hands-on experience with C# and .NET in general, have
used XML, XPath and XSLT more often than not, and have studied XQuery (wrote
a few articles about it on ASPToday.com, topxml.com and on my own site
pietsieg.com at the time when the MS XQuery Demo was hot). I have even some
experience using Java. I wouldn't say XSLT is my strong point (yet), but
I've seen the power of the language, also in .NET, and would be *very* happy
if support for the .NET Framework continues.

The fact that XSLT 1.0 / XSLT 2.0, Xpath 2.0, and Xquery 1.0 are supported
in one product is one prove that all three languages are worth to co-exist
and are not the same, and I agree with Michael that both XSLT and XQuery
will find their own application areas, with of course overlaps. It is a
misunderstanding of Microsoft to think that users would prefer XQuery over
XSLT. Exactly those overlaps will demonstrate developer's preferences. So
IMO they should all be supported in .NET.

I personally do find XQuery more appealing, but I guess that mainly stems
from the point that it's just very familiar to me. XSLT was (and in some way
still is) just difficult for me to learn. Especially the Xpath expressions;
they can become quite complex. But I like XSLT for its power, modularity,
and flexibility. Its ease of use and support on multiple platforms is just
great. And the simple fact that it's being used by so many developers is
justifying its existence.

But words are words, and deads are deads, so we better get started... :-)

I've thought about how to start such a project, since it IS a big challenge:
saxon source.zip contains 585 java source files of which I haven't seen one
yet... :-)

* First step, find a good place to host the project - it could be a
SourceForge workspace. I could also offer space on my own site, if costs are
an issue.

* Second step, finding the latest conversion tool. There's a new beta of the
Java to C# conversion tool:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/downloads/tools/jlca/30beta/default.aspx

I wouldn't know if it would be a good decision to try the 3.0 beta over the
existing 2.0 version but it has more Java support. It even states (for both
versions):

"Full conversion to Visual C#. Conversion of existing Java-language code to
Visual C# and the .NET Framework is complete and self-contained. You can
immediately start using the power of the .NET Framework and the
component-oriented programming features of Visual C#."

I doubt that very much, but one never knows... :-)

To join, we need to join the beta tester program at
https://beta.microsoft.com

* Third step, we'll need to solve the issues that come out of the
conversion. All kinds of issues will arise. To solve them adequately, we'll
need the help of some very knowlegdable people in the areas of XML/Xpath,
XQuery, C#, and Java - i.e., this great xsl-list, and others. Interested
persons will be able to join as members of the development team.

Any reactions? Suggestions?

NB: You can email me personally at mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx if you think it's OT.

<prs/>
http://www.pietsieg.com


-----Original Message-----
From: M. David Peterson [mailto:m.david@xxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:15 AM
To: xsl-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [xsl] killing xslt

Oh, I have no doubt there will be support for 2.0.  But it has been proven
time and time again that a simple announcement from MS of non-support for a
product can have a ripple effect that can have devastating affects on a
product or technology.  I'm not in any way suggesting that MS is up to any
sort of business where they are purposely trying to kill XSLT.  They are
simply doing what they feel is best for there customers as a whole which is
what they are supposed to be doing so there's not much that can be said
about that. But optimism alone that something will come along will not port
Saxon to .NET or in any way guarantee that something will come along and
save our beloved XSLT from extinction.  You can be optimistic and proactive
and accomplish a lot more than being optimistic and non-active.

You are definitely right from the sense that we shouldn't be taking a
doomsday attitude to this announcement.  I haven't seen any data regarding
how many companies have at least some installed base of stylesheets to
transform there XML data.  But it wouldn't surprise me if that number was as
high as 75-80% and people are going to rewrite there code base of
stylesheets simply because they can.  There has got to be a fairly strong
argument to shift gears and build a brand new code base to perform what is
already being performed by an existing code base.  This fact alone
guarantees that XSLT in its current format will be around for many years to
come.  And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that when developers have
a chance to look at XQuery and XSLT 2.0 side by side and compare in each the
ability to transform XML data there will be no more questions to be
answered.  XSLT will win that comparison in its current so theres no doubt
that the added features of 2.0 will ensure that many stylesheets are yet to
be written using the 2.0 platform.
But, again, as a community of developers who love the power that XSLT
affords us we have to do what we can to ensure that the wrong information is
not getting into the hands of decision makers and that the correct
information is available in abundance to those who have questions.

At least that's how I see it and as such have plans to do whatever needs to
be done to get all the correct information into the hands of those who want
it as well as my part in porting Saxon over to .NET as quickly as possible
so that the development of an XSLT 2.0 code base can begin to makes its way
into the .NET production environment.  If that approach seems pessimistic
then I guess I misunderstand the definition ;)

Best regards,

<M:D/>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Kenton [mailto:Jeffrey.Kenton@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 6:02 AM
> To: xsl-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [xsl] killing xslt
> 
> 
> I think everyone is being too pessimistic on the subject of XSLT 2.0.
In
> a
> previous lifetime, when I was Chairman of the OASIS XSLT Conformance 
> Committee, I was aware of at least 4 XSLT 2.0 development projects or 
> announced betas.  So, even if Microsoft won't have one right away,
there
> will
> be XSLT 2.0 processors available.  And, some (but not all ;-) of the
new
> features will draw users and more support as time goes on.  XSLT 1.0 
> didn't take off overnight either, but it grew as folks discovered its 
> uses.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> =    Jeff Kenton      Consulting and software development
=
> =                     http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.kenton
=
>
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