Subject: Re: HTML is a formatting/UI language was: RE: Formatting Obj From: Guy_Murphy@xxxxxxxxxx Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:35:03 +0100 |
Hi Paul. I take well your points, but they are document-centric, I I don't beleive they represent current practices of Web design. One only has to take a look at the source of Web sites out there to see that current use of HTML is a horrible mess, and are solely concerned with the appearence of the site, with little regard for the semantic correctness of the HTML. Dreamweaver and NetObjects Fusion barely encourage the useage of Hn tags, and don't encourage the use of ADDRESS, CITE tags etc at all. What they do encourage is an appearence focused design, with emphasis on layer positioning and manipulation... semantics break down completely here. By you're light they are broken, but the average Web designer simply doesn't care. He has prototyped his designs in PhotoShop is is seeking to achieve the best possible interpretation of this in the browser. He may resort to Flash, in which case you've lost him completely. Why do I think aural presentation objects would be supported?.... Becasue quite simply it allows the Web Designer to do cool things... it is the sole reason why I started playing with MS Agents, and it is the sole reason why I tried to get our product manager to allow me to incorporate text-to-speach and voice recognition into our intranet application. What you are also suggesting is the intermixing of two radicaly different presentation.... I migh produce a corporate from page for a site, that is highly graphical, the aural inference from whch by be near zero, but there might be lots to say about it. If I can seperate visual presentation from aural presentation I *can* say lots about it to the listener. Putting my Web Designer hat on rather than my knowledge management hat on mixing visual and aural presentation is a monumentaly *bad thig* and is doomed to failure for anything but a very simple document of data, and wholy inappropriate for the desing of Web sites. Cheers Guy. xsl-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 04/23/99 06:59:19 AM To: xsl-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx cc: (bcc: Guy Murphy/UK/MAID) Subject: Re: HTML is a formatting/UI language was: RE: Formatting Obj Guy_Murphy@xxxxxxxxxx wrote: > > We've had HTML for how many years now? And we have also had text to speak > for a good number of years also. Anybody seen during this time a rush by > the Web community to support aural presentation of Web pages? As far as I know, aural presentation of Web pages works *today*. > At a simple level, HTML is so loose, unclear and unspecific (I was tempted > to simply say crap) that there are 100000000 and 1 mish-mashed pages > pulling all sorts of dirty tricks to render they're page. Think that H2 > tags should be delivered in a certian way? It would require the dangerous > assumption that authors use H2 tags correctly. HTML *allows* you to do things properly and also makes that relatively easy to do. For instance MSWord 2000 outputs H1s, H2s, etc. for headings. So does DreamWeaver. I don't know a lot about other tools. Formatting objects *have no concept* of an H1 and an H2 so they don't even give users the option of doing things in an accessible manner -- unless they make a whole 'nother aural stylesheet (which we know they are not likely to do). > Hakon then talks about being able to carry over data semantics into > presentation using DIV classes.... just HOW are you going to interpret that > auraly. You don't. But then no major tools I know of generate just SPANs and DIVs. You could point to a tool that did and say: "that tool is broken." But a tool that used the same FO tag for paragraphs and headings would be *doing the right thing*. That's a problem. > The best way to specify aural presentation is.... ummm to specify it *not* > infer it. In a world of unlimited resources, maybe. In this world, not a chance. How much do you know about the proper aural specification for sight impaired people? How much research have you done? I know what I know: "use good, semantic HTML and let the software handle it." That's pretty much the jist of what the experts say also: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ Of their 14 guidelines not a single one says: "Go out of your way to use special technologies designed for impaired viewers." Most of them say, rather: "use the technologies that you would ordinarily use, but use them carefully and properly." "alt" text is the only counterexample and we know how wildly popular THAT has been. > [I truly find it hard to credit that we're going over HTML again at this > stage of the game] We don't need to go back to HTML if the formatting objects are made accessible. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "The Excursion [Sport Utility Vehicle] is so large that it will come equipped with adjustable pedals to fit smaller drivers and sensor devices that warn the driver when he or she is about to back into a Toyota or some other object." -- Dallas Morning News XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
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