Re: [niso-sts] Question regarding alternative and description text

["G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx" <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thank you, Tommie!

As I am trying to provide guidance to my clients, I would appreciate 
bringing the question of the normative/non-normative properties for 
<alt-text> and <long-desc> to the committee.

Would you please point me to a procedures page where I can learn more 
regarding how to pose my question to them?

I have ideas for the PDF rendering, and I like Liam's comment 
regarding a helpful annex. So I'm feeling more comfortable now 
regarding what I might offer clients in regards to the rendering.

I'm left with the question of guidance regarding what information 
clients should and should not be putting into these "non-visual" constructs.

Thank you, again.

. . . . . . Ken

At 2023-11-13 21:19 +0000, Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Ken --
>
> I think you are asking two questions:
>    * in STS, is the content of the <alt-text> and <long-desc> 
> normative? and
>    * how should this content be handled when rendering STS documents in PDF?
> I do not remember any conversations in the STS committees or in the 
> ISO work that preceded it about <alt-text> and <long-desc>. To my 
> recollection, these elements were adopted from JATS without 
> discussion. Since journal articles do not have normative and 
> non-normative content, JATS provides no guidance on the normative 
> status of <alt-text> and <long-desc>. This might be an interesting 
> question to pose to the STS standing committee.
>
> As for how <alt-text> and <long-desc> should be handled in PDF. I 
> see no reason standards documents should be different in this 
> respect from any other document. (I am told that including the 
> information needed for screen readers in PDF documents is fiddly but 
> possible. I have no first hand experience doing this.)
>
> -- Tommie
> ======================================================================
> B. Tommie 
> Usdin 
> mailto: <mailto:btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Mulberry Technologies, 
> Inc. 
> <https://www.mulberrytech.com>https://www.mulberrytech.com
> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for 
> Prose Documents
> ======================================================================
> On Nov 13, 2023, 3:21 PM -0500, G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx 
> <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, wrote:
> > Rereading the documentation, I think I found the key phrase I was 
> > looking for:
> >
> > "non-visual element"
> >
> > ... found for both elements. So, I guess that is definitive that I
> > have no rendering obligations outside of those used for assistive
> > access, and so I conclude it must not contain normative content.
> >
> > Although I am a bit worried when I read for <long-desc>:
> >
> > "... explains both the visual form of the chart
> > and significance of its findings."
> >
> > ... because I would think "significance" borders on being normative.
> > If the long description is to be assistive regarding an impairment
> > preventing the visualization of a graphic or table or formula, any
> > accompanying general text would/should already have normative
> > significance for all readers and, therefore, should not be in
> > assistive content that not all readers access.
> >
> > Anyway ... I have my direction.
> >
> > So I withdraw my question ... sorry for taking up the bandwidth.
> >
> > . . . . . . . . Ken
> >
> > https://www.niso-sts.org/TagLibrary/niso-sts-TL-1-0-html/element/alt-text.html
> > https://www.niso-sts.org/TagLibrary/niso-sts-TL-1-0-html/element/long-desc.html
> >
> > At 2023-11-13 19:59 +0000, G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > Fellow NISO STS list members,
> > >
> > > May I consider content found in <alt-text> and <long-description> as
> > > informative and not normative? I see nothing in the documentation
> > > that states one way or the other.
> > >
> > > My thought is that a PDF or paper rendering would (typically) hide
> > > this content from the reader. As a publisher of said content, do I
> > > have any obligation to render these elements visibly due to them
> > > possibly being normative?
> > >
> > > I can't think of why they would be normative. Important, yes, but
> > > authoring STS I wouldn't expect something normative to be stated in
> > > these elements, so I can make some assumptions when rendering.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your thoughts.
> > >
> > > . . . . . Ken


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