Re: [niso-sts] Question regarding alternative and description text

["B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

To comment on STS I suggest starting at:

  https://www.niso.org/standards-committees/sts

which points to the (current) comments page. (I would point you directly to
the comments page, but that changes with every version and
https://www.niso.org/standards-committees/sts is stable. On the assumption
that people may find this discussion in the list archives I would rather point
to a location that is most likely to be useful in the future.)

-- Tommie

> On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:01 PM, G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx
<niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Tommie!
>
> As I am trying to provide guidance to my clients, I would appreciate
bringing the question of the normative/non-normative properties for <alt-text>
and <long-desc> to the committee.
>
> Would you please point me to a procedures page where I can learn more
regarding how to pose my question to them?
>
> I have ideas for the PDF rendering, and I like Liam's comment regarding a
helpful annex. So I'm feeling more comfortable now regarding what I might
offer clients in regards to the rendering.
>
> I'm left with the question of guidance regarding what information clients
should and should not be putting into these "non-visual" constructs.
>
> Thank you, again.
>
> . . . . . . Ken
>
> At 2023-11-13 21:19 +0000, Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> Ken --
>>
>> I think you are asking two questions:
>>   * in STS, is the content of the <alt-text> and <long-desc> normative?
and
>>   * how should this content be handled when rendering STS documents in
PDF?
>> I do not remember any conversations in the STS committees or in the ISO
work that preceded it about <alt-text> and <long-desc>. To my recollection,
these elements were adopted from JATS without discussion. Since journal
articles do not have normative and non-normative content, JATS provides no
guidance on the normative status of <alt-text> and <long-desc>. This might be
an interesting question to pose to the STS standing committee.
>>
>> As for how <alt-text> and <long-desc> should be handled in PDF. I see no
reason standards documents should be different in this respect from any other
document. (I am told that including the information needed for screen readers
in PDF documents is fiddly but possible. I have no first hand experience doing
this.)
>>
>> -- Tommie
>> ======================================================================
>> B. Tommie Usdin mailto:
<mailto:btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.
<https://www.mulberrytech.com>https://www.mulberrytech.com
>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for Prose
Documents
>> ======================================================================
>> On Nov 13, 2023, 3:21 PM -0500, G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx
<niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, wrote:
>>> Rereading the documentation, I think I found the key phrase I was looking
for:
>>>
>>> "non-visual element"
>>>
>>> ... found for both elements. So, I guess that is definitive that I
>>> have no rendering obligations outside of those used for assistive
>>> access, and so I conclude it must not contain normative content.
>>>
>>> Although I am a bit worried when I read for <long-desc>:
>>>
>>> "... explains both the visual form of the chart
>>> and significance of its findings."
>>>
>>> ... because I would think "significance" borders on being normative.
>>> If the long description is to be assistive regarding an impairment
>>> preventing the visualization of a graphic or table or formula, any
>>> accompanying general text would/should already have normative
>>> significance for all readers and, therefore, should not be in
>>> assistive content that not all readers access.
>>>
>>> Anyway ... I have my direction.
>>>
>>> So I withdraw my question ... sorry for taking up the bandwidth.
>>>
>>> . . . . . . . . Ken
>>>
>>>
https://www.niso-sts.org/TagLibrary/niso-sts-TL-1-0-html/element/alt-text.htm
l
>>>
https://www.niso-sts.org/TagLibrary/niso-sts-TL-1-0-html/element/long-desc.ht
ml
>>>
>>> At 2023-11-13 19:59 +0000, G. Ken Holman g.ken.holman@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>> Fellow NISO STS list members,
>>>>
>>>> May I consider content found in <alt-text> and <long-description> as
>>>> informative and not normative? I see nothing in the documentation
>>>> that states one way or the other.
>>>>
>>>> My thought is that a PDF or paper rendering would (typically) hide
>>>> this content from the reader. As a publisher of said content, do I
>>>> have any obligation to render these elements visibly due to them
>>>> possibly being normative?
>>>>
>>>> I can't think of why they would be normative. Important, yes, but
>>>> authoring STS I wouldn't expect something normative to be stated in
>>>> these elements, so I can make some assumptions when rendering.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . Ken
>
>
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>

=============================================================================
======
B. Tommie Usdin			mailto: btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.	https://www.mulberrytech.com
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Documents
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