Re: [xsl] [possibly off topic] Adoption Rates and Future

[Wendell Piez <wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

At the outset let me remark that the question Hank asks is very much on 
topic, inasmuch as the strategic outlook for XML technologies very much 
implicates XSL and XSLT.

I'll also affirm Mike's counter-questions and hesitations.

Yet also, I think it's important to keep in mind that while XML/XSLT is 
firmly embedded in the stack, as Mike remarks, nevertheless there's 
frequently (and even "normally") something different about 
XML/XSLT-based solutions such as, I imagine, the application Hank built 
at his last job. These are not just off-the-shelf technologies 
addressing a greatest-common-factor set of requirements, as is more 
commonly the case for automated information processing systems (most 
especially those that get press). XML systems in their pure form (that 
is, when XML isn't just being used as an application file format, but is 
a design focus in itself) are to a greater or lesser extent always 
customized, customizable, "bespoke" technologies. This is even the case 
when it isn't -- as, for example, in successful community-based 
"standard" XML technologies such as DITA, which maintain significant 
capability for this even when they're used out of the box.

This isn't to say that LAMP-based development isn't also custom 
development. But HTML/CSS is used in such projects, typically, as a 
given. Semantic labeling may be used as a means to an end in some ways 
(such as for driving CSS), and some effort may be made in a database to 
fit data structures to specific information processing requirements 
(though even there it will often be cookie-cutter). But XML permits 
adaptability at a much more profound and fundamental level.

Because of this I suspect XML/XSLT will always be unnecessary, and 
frequently mysterious, to customers who are happier with what they can 
get shrink-wrapped, having no need or interest in fitting their data set 
to their problem domain beyond tinkering with a database. And that's 
okay: if working with their information in a media-centric rather than 
content-centric way does the job for them, who's complaining? This 
doesn't mean that the usefulness of XML/XSLT will ever go away (until, 
that is, it is subsumed into something even more capable).

And this speaks also to the difficulty of making a list of successful 
applications of XML. Many of the most successful, I dare say, won't even 
be known in public: they are too far in back, doing important work for 
people who don't necessarily want to share their means and methods.

If this sounds paradoxical (because XML is so powerful and so open, it 
is going to be secret), it is. Lists can be made, but they probably 
aren't going to be very impressive to those who never look past lists.

Cheers,
Wendell

On 11/2/2011 5:16 PM, Michael Kay wrote:
> You seem to be asking three separate questions.
>
> In the title of your post, you allude to the extent to which the
> technology is adopted and how this might change over time. But you don't
> really explain how the body of your post relates to this question, nor
> do you give any data about the level of adoption or how this is
> changing. Which is wise, because there is no hard data, and
> extrapolating from the morsels of data we have (such as google search
> trends) is probably very unreliable.
>
> Then you tell us an anecdote about (if I read it right) a company that
> is having trouble recruiting. Well, there could be a million reasons for
> that; I'm not sure what we are supposed to read into this story.
>
> Finally you ask for a list of XML applications. Well, you might collect
> some, though again, good information is notoriously hard to come by.
> Very few of the projects I have consulted to over the years have made
> anything public or visible about the fact that their systems are based
> very largely on XML.
>
> Different people will see what's happening from different perspectives
> and draw different conclusions; every one of them is seeing a tiny part
> of the total picture. From my perspective, what I see is that XML (and
> with it XSLT) is now a mature technology that is deeply embedded in the
> infrastructure, that is doing a very useful job, and that no longer has
> any great novelty or fashion appeal.
>
> Michael Kay
> Saxonica
>
>
> On 02/11/2011 19:54, Hank Ratzesberger wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Please forgive me if this is off topic, or point me to another list,
> > (or just ignore)
> >
> > At a previous job, I built a application/website that for the most
> > part was
> > entirely scripted in XML -- eXist database, XSTLT, XForms. Having moved
> > on, they could not find much interest in filling the job and likely the
> > application will get ported to "LAMP" with limited features and the
> > job role more of a data analyst.
> >
> > Having built an entirely open source (and free) application using W3C
> > standards with several excellent books for training and helpful mailing
> > lists, I am wondering why there should be any lack of interest, though
> > granted the university system has some challenges hiring from the
> > private sector when it comes to IT.
> >
> > Perhaps it isn't clear the XML is a technology stack, not simply a
> > file format. When sitting on J2EE applications, it is using the Java
> > character encoding, real number and date handling -- I18N and
> > various floating point issues are consistently handled.
> >
> > Is there a good list of XML/XSLT/etc. based applications? Where
> > can reference as examples that use the technology?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Hank


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Wendell Piez                            mailto:wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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