[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
[Date Index] [Thread Index]
[Monthly Archives] [List Home]

Re: [Virtools] More on Scripting (Was Competition)

Well, I won't get myself into the position of defending others design
decisions :-)

Venting is good, at least I think so, as long as the comments are
constructive - if something doesn't work for a user (of any product) then
tell the developers how to make it better is my motto.

I agree that the interface is unconventional but once I (finally) got used
to it I find it quite easy to get around in.  There are times when I wish
that things were different but I understand (I think) the rationale behind
many of the decisions.  Some aren't the way that I would have done them, but
then it isn't my product...

V2 has more control over element placement in the 3D Layout window - choices
of referentials for operations, snapping, etc..  Once I memorized all of the
options it works quite well.  And, the 'flycam' mode is quite handing when
you want to achieve a particular perspective on things.

Do you have any suggestions for improvements?  What you would like to see
changed, why, and how this will help you use the tool?  Who knows, maybe
your suggestions will be something that Virtools would really appreciate.

WRT Shockwave 3D and Dev 2 - you now have sound (can be streamed from a URL
I believe), videos (in AVI format using whatever codecs are available),
dynamic data is now possible - including dynamic objects and dynamic scripts
(together or separately) and automatic Web Player updates are available.
They still need to get a Mac player though - I believe that someone(s) are
hard at work on that.

The Behavioral Server also provides streaming content so that you can
download the start scene and then download other scenes in the background.

So, Shockwave has better cross platform capabilities at the moment but IMHO
Virtools is catching up there and I think that the 3D capabilities of Dev
are better than Shockwave.  But, that is just my opinion.

Thanks for taking the time to continue discussing these points!

David Callele

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Wane" <bpwane@smerc.com>
To: "Callele, David" <CALLELE@siast.sk.ca>
Cc: "Virtools List" <virtools-user-group@lists.theswapmeet.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Virtools] More on Scripting (Was Competition)


> Yes... I'm using v1.01. Version 2 came out in a cross over period. We were
> mid way through the project.
>
> Yes.. I'm having fun. I finally get to vent a bit.
>
> The translate tool - Are you happy with their interface or their 3D
> interface functionality ? i could go on another tirade about interface
> design and functionality, but maybe that has changed significantly in v2.
>
> I disagree with earlier comments about Virtools vs Shockwave. Shove 3D is
> a far superior web product. Sound. Videos. Platforms. dynamic data and web
> updates.
>
> b
>
> :: Smerc Design ::
> :: 646.319.4232 ::
>
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Callele, David wrote:
>
> > Hmmm, I suspect that some of my comments apply only to Version 2.  To be
> > honest, I have been working with Virtools for quite a while now on
Version 2
> > so my memories of 1.0.1 are a little sketchy.
> >
> > In Dev 2 you can easily select a region via CTRL-left mouse button then
drag
> > over the region.  You can copy, paste, move, cut, etc.. Plus, all those
> > connecting lines automatically path find and connect for you so you
don't
> > have to do any of that manually any more (if set to do so in the General
> > Preferences).
> >
> > I need to double check on Behavior Graphs but I don't think that their
> > version is dynamically checked when the file is loaded so if you do find
a
> > bug or error then you would have to update them manually.  Again, with
> > planning and a little (lot of?) luck, this can be relatively
straightforward
> > or, at times, very annoying.
> >
> > On shortcuts, well, I tend to stay away from them because of the design
> > approach that I use.  For maximum reuse, I try hard to use messages that
I
> > define instead.  That way, I don't have to deal with that issue - but at
the
> > cost of a single frame delay and associated processing overhead.
> >
> > Generally, I don't end up "re-dropping all my scripts" because I save
them
> > with my object.  Once I am happy with the object then I save it with the
> > scripts.  If I need more of the objects, I drag in more of them.  If I
need
> > the scripts to work on other objects, well I just copy the script in the
> > level manager to the new object.
> >
> > In my experience, planning and testing were the the key to success.
That,
> > and a lot of practice - I look back at some of my scripts from a couple
of
> > years ago and I just shake my head and wonder how I could have thought
that
> > my approach was reasonable.
> >
> > I do agree with you that visual programming can never be quite as
flexible
> > as coding - one can simply never anticipate everything.  That is why I
write
> > my own BBs - so I can't disagree ;-)  However, once you reach critical
mass
> > in the BG department - look out!
> >
> > Here is an example that I use in my classes.  Visualize this scenario -
you
> > have a level with a character running around in it (a "Place" in Dev).
You
> > are actively controlling your character.  Now, *while your level is
still
> > running* you drop a new Place into 3D Layout, grab the Translate tool
and
> > move the new Place such that it abuts the original Place.  You go back
to
> > controlling your character and run from the old Place to the new Place
and
> > just keep right on going.... no stopping to compile your code, your
level,
> > nothing ==> just keep on running!
> >
> > I, at least, think that is very cool.
> >
> > Your consistency issues have been largely addressed in Version 2.  I say
> > largely because I have seen posts of reports that I haven't been able to
> > duplicate but that *may* still be outstanding - I just don't know.
> >
> > I don't know whether you are using Version 2 or not.  By your comments,
I
> > suspect that the answer is no.  If you haven't upgraded, all I can say
is
> > that Version 2 is a very significant upgrade - it almost seems like a
new
> > application to me at times.  If you can afford it, I believe that the
> > upgrade is worth every penny.
> >
> > Disclaimer: I was part of the Beta Test group and I did help write and
edit
> > the new User Guide so my opinion is probably biased.
> >
> > I'm having fun with this discussion - is anybody else?
> >
> > David Callele
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Brian Wane [SMTP:bpwane@smerc.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:09 PM
> > > To: Callele, David
> > > Cc: cyberart; Virtools List
> > > Subject: RE: [Virtools] Virtools Promises and Competion
> > >
> > > Hmmm.
> > > I can see your point about planning but let's say you ever wanted
> > > to change anything at all in your scripts and that those scripts wer
on
> > > many objects.
> > > First of all, I have found massive bugs in Virtools and a complete
> > > inconsitency between the creation environment, varying scenes and the
> > > player environment. So I have had to change scripts after making them
work
> > > in one environment.
> > > The fact that you have to re-drop all your scripts and that you
> > > lose so many short cuts is infuriating. I just don't see this visual
> > > programming environment ever being as flexible as code. For instance.
You
> > > can't even select and drag a group of program blocks. You have to move
> > > each one and then move all the little lines. It is such a waste of
time. I
> > > could go on for hours. if I am missing some key functionality in
Creation
> > > please let me know. It would make my life a lot easier.
> > >
> > > b
> > >
> > > :: Smerc Design ::
> > > :: 646.319.4232 ::
> > >
> > > On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Callele, David wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think that I will take my turn at commenting on the scripting
thing...
> > > > These comments aren't directed at Robert or Brian, this email just
> > > happens
> > > > to be the latest in my Inbox.
> > > >
> > > > That said, for Robert: Dev does not contain a scripting language but
> > > access
> > > > to the source code for all BBs and the interface to the underlying
> > > engines
> > > > (the SDK).  It is possible to dynamically create a script using the
SDK
> > > but
> > > > I have never found the time to get that deeply into that part of it.
> > > >
> > > > There are times when I could not agree with you more about the
> > > desirability
> > > > of having a scripting language.  For me, those times occur when I am
> > > > performing mathematical manipulations on data - I usually just
escape to
> > > > writing a custom BB as necessary.
> > > >
> > > > For me, the greatest power in Virtools architecture lies in Behavior
> > > Graphs
> > > > (BGs) and scripted objects. I plan my project (and plan and plan)
trying
> > > to
> > > > identify the objects (both visual and in an object oriented sense)
that
> > > the
> > > > project requires and the behaviors associated with each object.
Then,
> > > for
> > > > each object I start to build the behaviors from the ground up -
always
> > > > looking for "meta-behaviors", those behaviors that can be
encapsulated
> > > as a
> > > > Behavior Graph for (potential) reuse.  After a while, I have found
that
> > > I
> > > > have built a library of BGs that are very useful in other
development
> > > > efforts.  Once I have built all of my behaviors and encapsulated
them as
> > > BGs
> > > > (for reuse if possible or appropriate), I end up with an object that
has
> > > one
> > > > or more scripts where each script simply contains a single BG.
Then, I
> > > save
> > > > each object as a scripted object (NMO format) for later assembly
into my
> > > > final composition.
> > > >
> > > > The end result has worked very well for me - I have the BGs
available
> > > for
> > > > reuse and the scripted object that is added to my composition (with
all
> > > > scripts atttached) by simply dragging into the rendering window -
but at
> > > the
> > > > cost of doing the initial planning.
> > > >
> > > > But, then again, isn't that initial planning what we are always
supposed
> > > to
> > > > do on our projects? ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Whenever I have planned my projects in detail, I haven't *really*
missed
> > > > access to a scripting language.  Now, if only I could force myself
to
> > > always
> > > > follow my own advice from above, sigh.
> > > >
> > > > To me, the ability to take a media object of some form, then make it
> > > > interactive by attaching behaviors, and then saving it as a new
"object"
> > > is
> > > > just incredible.  I simply have never experienced such an elegant
> > > solution
> > > > to taking arbitrary data and turning it into an "object" in the
> > > > object-oriented programming sense and, as is probably pretty obvious
by
> > > now,
> > > > I really do enjoy it.
> > > >
> > > > There, off of my soap box.
> > > >
> > > > Lest anyone think otherwise, I do believe that there are a number of
> > > > enhancements that can be made to Dev - just check with Nicolas in
Tech
> > > > Support to see how often I have "offered my advice" :-o
> > > >
> > > > Have a great day,
> > > >
> > > > David Callele
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: cyberart [SMTP:cyberart@frontiernet.net]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:18 AM
> > > > > To: Virtools List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Virtools] Virtools Promises and Competion
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian Wane wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, as a user of creation and Director I am over joyed
at
> > > being
> > > > > > able to code 3d normally again in Director. I've programmed 3d
in a
> > > > > number
> > > > > > of packages and I find the Creation visual programming
environment
> > > > > incredibly
> > > > > > inefficient. Perhaps Dev is better.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a point of curiosity for me, too. I've used Creation;
haven't
> > > used
> > > > > Dev.
> > > > > I had hoped perhaps there was a scripting language in Dev
> > > > > to do the networking which in Creation you have to do manually in
the
> > > > > Schematic View.
> > > > >
> > > > > In some ways working in the Schematic View struck me as analogous
to
> > > > > working in Maya's Hypergraph (or Hypershade).
> > > > > But if that were the *only* way of working in Maya
> > > > > (and you didn't have Maya's scripting language MEL to automate
> > > processes)
> > > > > it would get very tedious at times.
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Robert
> > > > > ...............................................................
> > > > > Distributed via the virtools-user-group list:
> > > > > http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
> > > > > To reply to the list instead of its author, use "Reply to All"
> > > > > To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe virtools-user-group" to
> > > > > Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > > > To subscribe: send "subscribe virtools-user-group" to
> > > > > Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > > > To post a message: send it to
> > > virtools-user-group@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > > > ...............................................................
> > > >
> > >
> > > ...............................................................
> > > Distributed via the virtools-user-group list:
> > > http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
> > > To reply to the list instead of its author, use "Reply to All"
> > > To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe virtools-user-group" to
> > > Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > To subscribe: send "subscribe virtools-user-group" to
> > > Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > To post a message: send it to
virtools-user-group@lists.theswapmeet.com
> > > ...............................................................
> >
>
> ...............................................................
> Distributed via the virtools-user-group list:
http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
> To reply to the list instead of its author, use "Reply to All"
> To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe virtools-user-group" to
Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> To subscribe: send "subscribe virtools-user-group" to
Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
> To post a message: send it to virtools-user-group@lists.theswapmeet.com
> ...............................................................

...............................................................
Distributed via the virtools-user-group list: http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
To reply to the list instead of its author, use "Reply to All"
To unsubscribe: send "unsubscribe virtools-user-group" to Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
To subscribe: send "subscribe virtools-user-group" to Majordomo@lists.theswapmeet.com
To post a message: send it to virtools-user-group@lists.theswapmeet.com
...............................................................
References: