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Re: [Virtools] More on Scripting (Was Competition)

Yes... I'm using v1.01. Version 2 came out in a cross over period. We were
mid way through the project.

Yes.. I'm having fun. I finally get to vent a bit.

The translate tool - Are you happy with their interface or their 3D
interface functionality ? i could go on another tirade about interface
design and functionality, but maybe that has changed significantly in v2.

I disagree with earlier comments about Virtools vs Shockwave. Shove 3D is
a far superior web product. Sound. Videos. Platforms. dynamic data and web
updates.

b

:: Smerc Design ::
:: 646.319.4232 ::

On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Callele, David wrote:

> Hmmm, I suspect that some of my comments apply only to Version 2.  To be
> honest, I have been working with Virtools for quite a while now on Version 2
> so my memories of 1.0.1 are a little sketchy.
>
> In Dev 2 you can easily select a region via CTRL-left mouse button then drag
> over the region.  You can copy, paste, move, cut, etc.. Plus, all those
> connecting lines automatically path find and connect for you so you don't
> have to do any of that manually any more (if set to do so in the General
> Preferences).
>
> I need to double check on Behavior Graphs but I don't think that their
> version is dynamically checked when the file is loaded so if you do find a
> bug or error then you would have to update them manually.  Again, with
> planning and a little (lot of?) luck, this can be relatively straightforward
> or, at times, very annoying.
>
> On shortcuts, well, I tend to stay away from them because of the design
> approach that I use.  For maximum reuse, I try hard to use messages that I
> define instead.  That way, I don't have to deal with that issue - but at the
> cost of a single frame delay and associated processing overhead.
>
> Generally, I don't end up "re-dropping all my scripts" because I save them
> with my object.  Once I am happy with the object then I save it with the
> scripts.  If I need more of the objects, I drag in more of them.  If I need
> the scripts to work on other objects, well I just copy the script in the
> level manager to the new object.
>
> In my experience, planning and testing were the the key to success.  That,
> and a lot of practice - I look back at some of my scripts from a couple of
> years ago and I just shake my head and wonder how I could have thought that
> my approach was reasonable.
>
> I do agree with you that visual programming can never be quite as flexible
> as coding - one can simply never anticipate everything.  That is why I write
> my own BBs - so I can't disagree ;-)  However, once you reach critical mass
> in the BG department - look out!
>
> Here is an example that I use in my classes.  Visualize this scenario - you
> have a level with a character running around in it (a "Place" in Dev).  You
> are actively controlling your character.  Now, *while your level is still
> running* you drop a new Place into 3D Layout, grab the Translate tool and
> move the new Place such that it abuts the original Place.  You go back to
> controlling your character and run from the old Place to the new Place and
> just keep right on going.... no stopping to compile your code, your level,
> nothing ==> just keep on running!
>
> I, at least, think that is very cool.
>
> Your consistency issues have been largely addressed in Version 2.  I say
> largely because I have seen posts of reports that I haven't been able to
> duplicate but that *may* still be outstanding - I just don't know.
>
> I don't know whether you are using Version 2 or not.  By your comments, I
> suspect that the answer is no.  If you haven't upgraded, all I can say is
> that Version 2 is a very significant upgrade - it almost seems like a new
> application to me at times.  If you can afford it, I believe that the
> upgrade is worth every penny.
>
> Disclaimer: I was part of the Beta Test group and I did help write and edit
> the new User Guide so my opinion is probably biased.
>
> I'm having fun with this discussion - is anybody else?
>
> David Callele
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Brian Wane [SMTP:bpwane@smerc.com]
> > Sent:	Monday, June 11, 2001 2:09 PM
> > To:	Callele, David
> > Cc:	cyberart; Virtools List
> > Subject:	RE: [Virtools] Virtools Promises and Competion
> >
> > Hmmm.
> > 	I can see your point about planning but let's say you ever wanted
> > to change anything at all in your scripts and that those scripts wer on
> > many objects.
> > 	First of all, I have found massive bugs in Virtools and a complete
> > inconsitency between the creation environment, varying scenes and the
> > player environment. So I have had to change scripts after making them work
> > in one environment.
> > 	The fact that you have to re-drop all your scripts and that you
> > lose so many short cuts is infuriating. I just don't see this visual
> > programming environment ever being as flexible as code. For instance. You
> > can't even select and drag a group of program blocks. You have to move
> > each one and then move all the little lines. It is such a waste of time. I
> > could go on for hours. if I am missing some key functionality in Creation
> > please let me know. It would make my life a lot easier.
> >
> > b
> >
> > :: Smerc Design ::
> > :: 646.319.4232 ::
> >
> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Callele, David wrote:
> >
> > > I think that I will take my turn at commenting on the scripting thing...
> > > These comments aren't directed at Robert or Brian, this email just
> > happens
> > > to be the latest in my Inbox.
> > >
> > > That said, for Robert: Dev does not contain a scripting language but
> > access
> > > to the source code for all BBs and the interface to the underlying
> > engines
> > > (the SDK).  It is possible to dynamically create a script using the SDK
> > but
> > > I have never found the time to get that deeply into that part of it.
> > >
> > > There are times when I could not agree with you more about the
> > desirability
> > > of having a scripting language.  For me, those times occur when I am
> > > performing mathematical manipulations on data - I usually just escape to
> > > writing a custom BB as necessary.
> > >
> > > For me, the greatest power in Virtools architecture lies in Behavior
> > Graphs
> > > (BGs) and scripted objects. I plan my project (and plan and plan) trying
> > to
> > > identify the objects (both visual and in an object oriented sense) that
> > the
> > > project requires and the behaviors associated with each object.  Then,
> > for
> > > each object I start to build the behaviors from the ground up - always
> > > looking for "meta-behaviors", those behaviors that can be encapsulated
> > as a
> > > Behavior Graph for (potential) reuse.  After a while, I have found that
> > I
> > > have built a library of BGs that are very useful in other development
> > > efforts.  Once I have built all of my behaviors and encapsulated them as
> > BGs
> > > (for reuse if possible or appropriate), I end up with an object that has
> > one
> > > or more scripts where each script simply contains a single BG.  Then, I
> > save
> > > each object as a scripted object (NMO format) for later assembly into my
> > > final composition.
> > >
> > > The end result has worked very well for me - I have the BGs available
> > for
> > > reuse and the scripted object that is added to my composition (with all
> > > scripts atttached) by simply dragging into the rendering window - but at
> > the
> > > cost of doing the initial planning.
> > >
> > > But, then again, isn't that initial planning what we are always supposed
> > to
> > > do on our projects? ;-)
> > >
> > > Whenever I have planned my projects in detail, I haven't *really* missed
> > > access to a scripting language.  Now, if only I could force myself to
> > always
> > > follow my own advice from above, sigh.
> > >
> > > To me, the ability to take a media object of some form, then make it
> > > interactive by attaching behaviors, and then saving it as a new "object"
> > is
> > > just incredible.  I simply have never experienced such an elegant
> > solution
> > > to taking arbitrary data and turning it into an "object" in the
> > > object-oriented programming sense and, as is probably pretty obvious by
> > now,
> > > I really do enjoy it.
> > >
> > > There, off of my soap box.
> > >
> > > Lest anyone think otherwise, I do believe that there are a number of
> > > enhancements that can be made to Dev - just check with Nicolas in Tech
> > > Support to see how often I have "offered my advice" :-o
> > >
> > > Have a great day,
> > >
> > > David Callele
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:	cyberart [SMTP:cyberart@frontiernet.net]
> > > > Sent:	Monday, June 11, 2001 11:18 AM
> > > > To:	Virtools List
> > > > Subject:	Re: [Virtools] Virtools Promises and Competion
> > > >
> > > > Brian Wane wrote:
> > > > > Personally, as a user of creation and Director I am over joyed at
> > being
> > > > > able to code 3d normally again in Director. I've programmed 3d in a
> > > > number
> > > > > of packages and I find the Creation visual programming environment
> > > > incredibly
> > > > > inefficient. Perhaps Dev is better.
> > > >
> > > > This is a point of curiosity for me, too. I've used Creation; haven't
> > used
> > > > Dev.
> > > > I had hoped perhaps there was a scripting language in Dev
> > > > to do the networking which in Creation you have to do manually in the
> > > > Schematic View.
> > > >
> > > > In some ways working in the Schematic View struck me as analogous to
> > > > working in Maya's Hypergraph (or Hypershade).
> > > > But if that were the *only* way of working in Maya
> > > > (and you didn't have Maya's scripting language MEL to automate
> > processes)
> > > > it would get very tedious at times.
> > > > ---
> > > > Robert
> > > > ...............................................................
> > > > Distributed via the virtools-user-group list:
> > > > http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
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> > > > ...............................................................
> > >
> >
> > ...............................................................
> > Distributed via the virtools-user-group list:
> > http://www.theswapmeet.com/numl.html
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> > ...............................................................
>

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