Re: [jats-list] Translations for section titles

Subject: Re: [jats-list] Translations for section titles
From: "Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx" <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:35:58 -0000
Hi Tommie,

This of course works, but only if you decide to provide side-by-side language content on the topmost section level, not below. This feels only marginally better for block-level advocates than to have a distinct document for each language. If you have the language switch/group as coarse-grained as on the topmost section level you might as well have it on the article level -- without lang-groups, but with the assumption that all language versions should align by identical IDs.

As I said, I'm not advocating side-by-side alignment of translations on a block level granularity, but there are people who want to have it and the examples in the paper suggest that it's attainable. As Nikos pointed out, with repeatable title and label elements this would be possible, but it's a huge stretch grammar-wise.

I observe that the utility or universal applicability of the lang-group feature is significantly hampered by the grammatical constraints (that is, at most one title per section), but I don't know whether it makes lang-group largely useless (probably not).

All I can say at the moment that I have the feeling that this discussion will lead us somewhere.

Gerrit

On 06.05.2022 17:09, B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Hi Gerrit --

I'm jumping in because your example of interleaved titles and paragraphs in multiple languages makes me very uncomfortable. I think there is a much more graceful way to encode what I think you are describing and to provide the linking at multiple levels that I think you need.

The example below shows:
   - several levels of sections, each with a label, title, and some content at the bottom level.
   - The "same" text is provided in 3 languages. (Please don't get caught in the details of the language content,
     it was created by an auto-translator and it probably horrible. I hope it is good enough to make my point.)
   - each of the language versions is structurally coherent, that is, it is a section with it's identified language
     and content as a JATS user would expect to see it
   - at all levels the structures are associated with the other language versions of the same structure, which should
     allow side by side alignment should that be desired

I don't know if the list will mangle this example; if it does and anyone reading it wants a clean copy, please send me email at btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and I'll be happy to send a zipped copy to you directly.

-- Tommie

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!--<!DOCTYPE article SYSTEM "some-imaginary-future-JATS-journalpublishing1-X.dtd">
-->
<article xml:lang="mul">
  <processing-meta lang-grouping="yes"> </processing-meta>
  <front>
   <journal-meta><journal-id/><issn/></journal-meta>
   <article-meta>
    <title-group><article-title/></title-group>
    <content-language>en</content-language>
    <content-language>nl</content-language>
    <content-language>el</content-language>
   </article-meta>
  </front>
  <body>
   <sec>
    <title>Testbed</title>
    <sec xml:lang="en" lang-group="sec-1" id="sec-1">
     <!-- In English -->
     <label>Part I.</label>
     <title>Rules of Order.</title>
     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1" id="sec-1-1">
      <label>Art. I.</label>
      <title>Introduction of Business. [B'B' 1-5.]</title>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1" id="sec-1-1-1">
       <label>1.</label>
       <p>All business should be brought before the assembly by a
        motion of a member, or by the presentation of a communication
        to the assembly. It is not usual, however, to make a motion to
        receive the reports of committees [B' 30] or communications to
        the assembly; and in many other cases in the ordinary routine
        of business, the formality of a motion is dispensed with; but
        should any member object, a regular motion becomes
        necessary.</p>
      </sec>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2" id="sec-1-1-2">
       <label>2.</label>
       <p>Before a member can make a motion or address the assembly
        upon any question, it is necessary that he obtain the floor;
        that is, he must rise and address the presiding officer by his
        title, thus: "Mr. Chairman" [B' 34], who will then announce the
        member's name. Where two or more rise at the same time the
        Chairman must decide who is entitled to the floor, which he
        does by announcing that member's name. From this decision,
        however, an appeal [B' 14] can he taken; though if there is any
        doubt as to who is entitled to the floor, the Chairman can at
        the first allow the assembly to decide the question by a
        votebthe one getting the largest vote being entitled to the
        floor.</p>
      </sec>
     </sec>
    </sec>

    <sec xml:lang="nl" lang-group="sec-1">
     <!-- In Dutch -->
     <label>Deel I.</label>
     <title>Orderegels.</title>
     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1">
      <label>Kunst. I.</label>
      <title>Introductie van het bedrijfsleven. [B'B' 1-5.] </title>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1">
       <label>1.</label>
       <p>Alle zaken dienen aan de vergadering te worden voorgelegd
        door een motie van een lid of door de presentatie van een
        mededeling aan de vergadering. Het is echter niet gebruikelijk
        om een motie in te dienen om de verslagen van commissies [B' 30]
        of mededelingen aan de vergadering te ontvangen; en in veel
        andere gevallen in de gewone gang van zaken wordt de
        formaliteit van een motie achterwege gelaten; maar mocht een
        lid bezwaar maken, dan wordt een reguliere motie
        noodzakelijk.</p>
      </sec>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2">
       <label>2.</label>
       <p>Voordat een lid een motie kan indienen of de vergadering kan
        toespreken over een vraag, is het noodzakelijk dat hij het
        woord krijgt; dat wil zeggen, hij moet opstaan en de voorzitter
        aanspreken met zijn titel, dus: "Meneer de Voorzitter" [B' 34],
        die dan de naam van het lid zal aankondigen. Wanneer twee of
        meer tegelijk opstaan, moet de voorzitter beslissen wie het
        woord mag voeren, hetgeen hij doet door de naam van dat lid
        bekend te maken. Tegen deze beslissing kan hij echter beroep
        instellen [B' 14]; Maar als er enige twijfel bestaat over wie
        het woord heeft, kan de voorzitter bij de eerste gelegenheid de
        vergadering toestaan om de kwestie door middel van een stemming
        te beslissen ; degene die de grootste stem krijgt, heeft het
        woord. </p>
      </sec>
     </sec>
    </sec>

    <sec xml:lang="el" lang-group="sec-1">
     <!-- In Greek -->
     <label>NN-ON?O I.</label>
     <title>NN1N=ON=N5O ON,N>N7O.</title>
     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1">
      <label>N$N-ON=N7. I.</label>
      <title>NN9ON1N3O	N3N. ON7O N5ON9ON5N/ON7ON7O. [B'B' 1-5.]</title>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1">
       <label>1.</label>
       <p>NN;N5O N?N9 N5ON9ON5N9ON.ON5N9O N8N1 OON-ON5N9 N=N1 OON?ON,N3N?ON= N5N=OON9N?N= ON7O
        OON=N-N;N5OON7O N<N5 OOOON1ON7 N<N-N;N?OO N. N<N5 ON7N= ON1ON?OON/N1ON7 N1N=N1N:N?N/N=O	ON7O
        OON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7. N)OOOON?, N4N5N= N5N/N=N1N9 OO
N=N7N8N5O N=N1 OON?N2N,N;N;N?N=ON1N9
        OON?ON,ON5N9O N3N9N1 ON7 N;N.ON7 OO	N= N5N:N8N-ON5O	N= OO	N= N5ON9OON?OON= [B' 30] N. OO	N=
        N5ON9N:N?N9N=O	N=N9ON= OON?O ON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7B7 N:N1N9 ON5 ON?N;N;N-O N,N;N;N5O ON5ON9OOOON5N9O
        OON7 OON=N.N8N7 ON?OON/N=N1 OO	N= N5ON3N1ON9ON=, N7 N5ON9ON7N<OON7ON1 N<N9N1O OOOON1ON7O
        N1ON?OON,ON8N7N:N5. N1N;N;N, ON5 ON5ON/OOO	ON7 ON?O N?ON?N9N?N4N.ON?ON5 N<N-N;N?O
        N1N=ON9ON1ON8N5N/, N:N1N8N/OON1ON1N9 N1ON1ON1N/ON7ON7 N<N9N1 ON1N:ON9N:N. N:N/N=N7ON7.</p>
      </sec>
      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2">
       <label>2.</label>
       <p>NN9N1 N=N1 N<ON?ON-ON5N9 N-N=N1 N<N-N;N?O N=N1 OON?N2N,N;N5N9 OOOON1ON7 N. N=N1 N1ON5ON8ON=N8N5N/
        OON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7 N:N1OOON9N= N?ON?N9N1ON4N.ON?ON5 N5OOON7ON7O, N5N/N=N1N9 N1ON1ON1N/ON7ON?
        N=N1 N;N,N2N5N9 ON?N= N;ON3N?. NN7N;N1N4N., OON-ON5N9 N=N1 N1N=OOO	N8N5N/ N:N1N9 N=N1 N1ON5ON8ON=N8N5N/
        OON?N= OON?N5N4ON5O
N?N=ON1 N<N5 ON?N= ON/ON;N? ON?O, N-OON9: B+N:. N OO N5N4ON?OB; [B' 34],
        N? N?ON?N/N?O OON7 OON=N-ON5N9N1 N8N1 N1N=N1N:N?N9N=OON5N9 ON? ON=N?N<N1 ON?O N<N-N;N?OO. NON1N=
        N4O
N? N. ON5ON9OOO ON5ON5O N1N=OOON=N?N=ON1N9 ON1OOO OON?N=N1, N? OOO N5N4ON?O OON-ON5N9 N=N1
N1ON?ON1ON/N6N5N9 ON?N9N?O N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON?N= N;O N3N?, OON,N3N<N1 ON?O N:N,N=N5N9
        N1N=N1N:N?N9N=ON=N?N=ON1O ON? ON=N?N<N1 ON?O N5N= N;ON3O	 N<N-N;N?OO. NN=N?N<N1. NOO ON7N=
        N1OOON1ON7 N1OON., O	OOOON?, N<ON?ON5N/ N=N1 N1ON:N.ON5N9 N-ON5ON7 [N,ON8ON? 14] NN= N:N1N9
        N1N= OON,OON5N9 N1N<ON9N2N?N;N/N1 N3N9N1 ON? ON?N9N?O N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON?N= N;O N3N?, N?
        N OON5N4ON?O N<ON?ON5N/ N1OON9N:N, N=N1 N5ON9OON-ON5N9 OON7 N#ON=N-N;N5OON7 N=N1 N1ON?ON1ON/ON5N9
        ON? N5OOON7N<N1 N<N5 ON7ON?ON?ON/N1 b N1OON. ON?O N;N1N<N2N,N=N5N9 ON7 N<N5N3N1N;O
ON5ON7 ON.ON?
ON?O N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON? N;O N3N?.</p>
      </sec>
     </sec>
    </sec>
   </sec>

  </body>
</article>

On May 4, 2022, at 2:42 PM, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Vincent (and list),

Yesterday after your presentation and during the JATS-Con social (or happy) hour I complained that if you have a multiple-language document in which you choose to tag your content with block-level items and their translations side-by-side, you can't have translations for section titles.

I was thinking of someone who followed the "content items in two or more languages" approach (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK579699/#lizzi-content-items-in-two-or-more-languages) by adding a translation for each figure, table-wrap, p etc. element that is allowed within a section, side by side.

While you can have multiple figures, tables, paragraphs etc. in a row, you can't provide translation elements for elements that are allowed exactly once in a section, in particular, for the title element.

But there's a workaround: You can have the title translations as inline content in the title element, like so:

<sec id="sec1">
  <title><named-content content-type="title-content" lang-group="sec1-content" xml:lang="en">English Title</named-content>
    <named-content content-type="title-content" lang-group="sec1-content" xml:lang="fr">Titre franC'ais</named-content>
    <named-content content-type="title-content" lang-group="sec1-content" xml:lang="de">Deutscher Titel</named-content></title>
  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="en">Paragraph</p>
  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="fr">Paragraphe</p>
  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="de">Absatz</p>
</sec>

So I think it's feasible by and large to pursue a block-level translation approach, with minor sacrifices where you need to process inline translations.

(Note: I'm not advocating such an approach, but it came up occasionally when discussing how to tag multilingual content with customers.)

Gerrit


-- Gerrit Imsieke GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Director le-tex publishing services GmbH Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510 gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx, http://www.le-tex.de

Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930

GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Directors:
Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt



=================================================================================== B. Tommie Usdin mailto: btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Mulberry Technologies, Inc. https://www.mulberrytech.com Phone: 301/315-9631 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for Prose Documents ===================================================================================



-- Gerrit Imsieke GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Director le-tex publishing services GmbH Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510 gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx, http://www.le-tex.de

Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930

GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Directors:
Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt

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