Re: [jats-list] Translations for section titles

Subject: Re: [jats-list] Translations for section titles
From: "B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 17:54:17 -0000
I don't see the problem.

As I see it, you have a section at a level we don't see in this example. It
contains:
  - some stuff that comes before this location in the document,
  - a table, which contains content in several languages, tagged at the phrase
or paragraph or section level inside the table
  - a section in German, with an @id, an @xml:lang (de), and a @lang-group,
and inside it:
     - a label
     - a title
     - a paragraph
     - a paragraph
  - a section in English, with an @id (not the same as the one on the German
section), an @xml:lang (en), and a @lang-group
   (the SAME as the one on the German section), and inside it:
     - a label
     - a title
     - a paragraph
     - a paragraph
  - a section in French, with an @id (not the same as the one on the German or
English sections), an @xml:lang (fr), and a @lang-group
   (the SAME as the one on the German section), and inside it:
     - a label
     - a title
     - a paragraph
     - a paragraph

What am I missing here?

-- Tommie


> On May 6, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> If you decided that you made the language divide on a top-level section, you
can't have different languages side by side at lower levels.
>
> Consider the table in
https://www.le-tex.de/resource/JATS-Con_2022/DIN_820-2_2004_p30.png
>
> It contains the three language variants on a paragraph or table cell level.
>
> If you did the language split on Section 5.2.4 (the section that contains
the table), you can't have this multi-language table within the section
(unless you repeated it in each language version). The same is true if you did
the language split on Section 5 -- then you cannot have multilingual objects
within any subsection unless you repeat them in each language variant of the
section.
>
> My point is that having a language switch on a given level prevents encoding
fine-grained language-dependent code switches on lower levels.
>
> Gerrit
>
>
>
> On 06.05.2022 17:41, B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> Hi Gerrit --
>> I don't understand why you say "only if you decide to provide side-by-side
language content on the topmost section level, not below". My example is at a
high level, but I think this could be done at any level. Can you show an
example where this would not work?
>> -- Tommie
>>> On May 6, 2022, at 11:36 AM, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Tommie,
>>>
>>> This of course works, but only if you decide to provide side-by-side
language content on the topmost section level, not below. This feels only
marginally better for block-level advocates than to have a distinct document
for each language. If you have the language switch/group as coarse-grained as
on the topmost section level you might as well have it on the article level --
without lang-groups, but with the assumption that all language versions should
align by identical IDs.
>>>
>>> As I said, I'm not advocating side-by-side alignment of translations on a
block level granularity, but there are people who want to have it and the
examples in the paper suggest that it's attainable. As Nikos pointed out, with
repeatable title and label elements this would be possible, but it's a huge
stretch grammar-wise.
>>>
>>> I observe that the utility or universal applicability of the lang-group
feature is significantly hampered by the grammatical constraints (that is, at
most one title per section), but I don't know whether it makes lang-group
largely useless (probably not).
>>>
>>> All I can say at the moment that I have the feeling that this discussion
will lead us somewhere.
>>>
>>> Gerrit
>>>
>>> On 06.05.2022 17:09, B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>> Hi Gerrit --
>>>> I'm jumping in because your example of interleaved titles and paragraphs
in multiple languages makes me very uncomfortable. I think there is a much
more graceful way to encode what I think you are describing and to provide the
linking at multiple levels that I think you need.
>>>> The example below shows:
>>>>   - several levels of sections, each with a label, title, and some
content at the bottom level.
>>>>   - The "same" text is provided in 3 languages. (Please don't get caught
in the details of the language content,
>>>>     it was created by an auto-translator and it probably horrible. I hope
it is good enough to make my point.)
>>>>   - each of the language versions is structurally coherent, that is, it
is a section with it's identified language
>>>>     and content as a JATS user would expect to see it
>>>>   - at all levels the structures are associated with the other language
versions of the same structure, which should
>>>>     allow side by side alignment should that be desired
>>>> I don't know if the list will mangle this example; if it does and anyone
reading it wants a clean copy, please send me email at
btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and I'll be happy to send a zipped copy to you
directly.
>>>> -- Tommie
>>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>>>> <!--<!DOCTYPE article SYSTEM
"some-imaginary-future-JATS-journalpublishing1-X.dtd">
>>>> -->
>>>> <article xml:lang="mul">
>>>>  <processing-meta lang-grouping="yes"> </processing-meta>
>>>>  <front>
>>>>   <journal-meta><journal-id/><issn/></journal-meta>
>>>>   <article-meta>
>>>>    <title-group><article-title/></title-group>
>>>>    <content-language>en</content-language>
>>>>    <content-language>nl</content-language>
>>>>    <content-language>el</content-language>
>>>>   </article-meta>
>>>>  </front>
>>>>  <body>
>>>>   <sec>
>>>>    <title>Testbed</title>
>>>>    <sec xml:lang="en" lang-group="sec-1" id="sec-1">
>>>>     <!-- In English -->
>>>>     <label>Part I.</label>
>>>>     <title>Rules of Order.</title>
>>>>     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1" id="sec-1-1">
>>>>      <label>Art. I.</label>
>>>>      <title>Introduction of Business. [B'B' 1-5.]</title>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1" id="sec-1-1-1">
>>>>       <label>1.</label>
>>>>       <p>All business should be brought before the assembly by a
>>>>        motion of a member, or by the presentation of a communication
>>>>        to the assembly. It is not usual, however, to make a motion to
>>>>        receive the reports of committees [B' 30] or communications to
>>>>        the assembly; and in many other cases in the ordinary routine
>>>>        of business, the formality of a motion is dispensed with; but
>>>>        should any member object, a regular motion becomes
>>>>        necessary.</p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2" id="sec-1-1-2">
>>>>       <label>2.</label>
>>>>       <p>Before a member can make a motion or address the assembly
>>>>        upon any question, it is necessary that he obtain the floor;
>>>>        that is, he must rise and address the presiding officer by his
>>>>        title, thus: "Mr. Chairman" [B' 34], who will then announce the
>>>>        member's name. Where two or more rise at the same time the
>>>>        Chairman must decide who is entitled to the floor, which he
>>>>        does by announcing that member's name. From this decision,
>>>>        however, an appeal [B' 14] can he taken; though if there is any
>>>>        doubt as to who is entitled to the floor, the Chairman can at
>>>>        the first allow the assembly to decide the question by a
>>>>        votebthe one getting the largest vote being entitled to the
>>>>        floor.</p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>     </sec>
>>>>    </sec>
>>>>    <sec xml:lang="nl" lang-group="sec-1">
>>>>     <!-- In Dutch -->
>>>>     <label>Deel I.</label>
>>>>     <title>Orderegels.</title>
>>>>     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1">
>>>>      <label>Kunst. I.</label>
>>>>      <title>Introductie van het bedrijfsleven. [B'B' 1-5.] </title>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1">
>>>>       <label>1.</label>
>>>>       <p>Alle zaken dienen aan de vergadering te worden voorgelegd
>>>>        door een motie van een lid of door de presentatie van een
>>>>        mededeling aan de vergadering. Het is echter niet gebruikelijk
>>>>        om een motie in te dienen om de verslagen van commissies [B' 30]
>>>>        of mededelingen aan de vergadering te ontvangen; en in veel
>>>>        andere gevallen in de gewone gang van zaken wordt de
>>>>        formaliteit van een motie achterwege gelaten; maar mocht een
>>>>        lid bezwaar maken, dan wordt een reguliere motie
>>>>        noodzakelijk.</p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2">
>>>>       <label>2.</label>
>>>>       <p>Voordat een lid een motie kan indienen of de vergadering kan
>>>>        toespreken over een vraag, is het noodzakelijk dat hij het
>>>>        woord krijgt; dat wil zeggen, hij moet opstaan en de voorzitter
>>>>        aanspreken met zijn titel, dus: "Meneer de Voorzitter" [B' 34],
>>>>        die dan de naam van het lid zal aankondigen. Wanneer twee of
>>>>        meer tegelijk opstaan, moet de voorzitter beslissen wie het
>>>>        woord mag voeren, hetgeen hij doet door de naam van dat lid
>>>>        bekend te maken. Tegen deze beslissing kan hij echter beroep
>>>>        instellen [B' 14]; Maar als er enige twijfel bestaat over wie
>>>>        het woord heeft, kan de voorzitter bij de eerste gelegenheid de
>>>>        vergadering toestaan om de kwestie door middel van een stemming
>>>>        te beslissen ; degene die de grootste stem krijgt, heeft het
>>>>        woord. </p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>     </sec>
>>>>    </sec>
>>>>    <sec xml:lang="el" lang-group="sec-1">
>>>>     <!-- In Greek -->
>>>>     <label>NN-ON?O I.</label>
>>>>     <title>NN1N=ON=N5O ON,N>N7O.</title>
>>>>     <sec lang-group="sec-1-1">
>>>>      <label>N$N-ON=N7. I.</label>
>>>>      <title>NN9ON1N3O	N3N. ON7O N5ON9ON5N/ON7ON7O. [B'B'
1-5.]</title>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-1">
>>>>       <label>1.</label>
>>>>       <p>NN;N5O N?N9 N5ON9ON5N9ON.ON5N9O N8N1 OON-ON5N9 N=N1
OON?ON,N3N?ON= N5N=OON9N?N= ON7O
>>>>        OON=N-N;N5OON7O N<N5 OOOON1ON7 N<N-N;N?OO N. N<N5
ON7N= ON1ON?OON/N1ON7 N1N=N1N:N?N/N=O	ON7O
>>>>        OON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7. N)OOOON?, N4N5N= N5N/N=N1N9
OO
N=N7N8N5O N=N1 OON?N2N,N;N;N?N=ON1N9
>>>>        OON?ON,ON5N9O N3N9N1 ON7 N;N.ON7 OO	N= N5N:N8N-ON5O	N=
OO	N= N5ON9OON?OON= [B' 30] N. OO	N=
>>>>        N5ON9N:N?N9N=O	N=N9ON= OON?O ON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7B7 N:N1N9
ON5 ON?N;N;N-O N,N;N;N5O ON5ON9OOOON5N9O
>>>>        OON7 OON=N.N8N7 ON?OON/N=N1 OO	N= N5ON3N1ON9ON=, N7
N5ON9ON7N<OON7ON1 N<N9N1O OOOON1ON7O
>>>>        N1ON?OON,ON8N7N:N5. N1N;N;N, ON5 ON5ON/OOO	ON7 ON?O
N?ON?N9N?N4N.ON?ON5 N<N-N;N?O
>>>>        N1N=ON9ON1ON8N5N/, N:N1N8N/OON1ON1N9 N1ON1ON1N/ON7ON7
N<N9N1 ON1N:ON9N:N. N:N/N=N7ON7.</p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>      <sec lang-group="sec-1-1-2">
>>>>       <label>2.</label>
>>>>       <p>NN9N1 N=N1 N<ON?ON-ON5N9 N-N=N1 N<N-N;N?O N=N1
OON?N2N,N;N5N9 OOOON1ON7 N. N=N1 N1ON5ON8ON=N8N5N/
>>>>        OON7 OON=N-N;N5OON7 N:N1OOON9N= N?ON?N9N1ON4N.ON?ON5
N5OOON7ON7O, N5N/N=N1N9 N1ON1ON1N/ON7ON?
>>>>        N=N1 N;N,N2N5N9 ON?N= N;ON3N?. NN7N;N1N4N., OON-ON5N9 N=N1
N1N=OOO	N8N5N/ N:N1N9 N=N1 N1ON5ON8ON=N8N5N/
>>>>        OON?N= OON?N5N4ON5O
N?N=ON1 N<N5 ON?N= ON/ON;N? ON?O,
N-OON9: B+N:. N OON5N4ON?OB; [B' 34],
>>>>        N? N?ON?N/N?O OON7 OON=N-ON5N9N1 N8N1
N1N=N1N:N?N9N=OON5N9 ON? ON=N?N<N1 ON?O N<N-N;N?OO. NON1N=
>>>>        N4O
N? N. ON5ON9OOOON5ON5O N1N=OOON=N?N=ON1N9
ON1OOOOON?N=N1, N? OOON5N4ON?O OON-ON5N9 N=N1
>>>>        N1ON?ON1ON/N6N5N9 ON?N9N?O N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON?N=
N;ON3N?, OON,N3N<N1 ON?O N:N,N=N5N9
>>>>        N1N=N1N:N?N9N=ON=N?N=ON1O ON? ON=N?N<N1 ON?O N5N= N;ON3O	
N<N-N;N?OO. NN=N?N<N1. NOO ON7N=
>>>>        N1OOON1ON7 N1OON., O	OOOON?, N<ON?ON5N/ N=N1
N1ON:N.ON5N9 N-ON5ON7 [N,ON8ON? 14] NN= N:N1N9
>>>>        N1N= OON,OON5N9 N1N<ON9N2N?N;N/N1 N3N9N1 ON? ON?N9N?O
N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON?N= N;ON3N?, N?
>>>>        N OON5N4ON?O N<ON?ON5N/ N1OON9N:N, N=N1 N5ON9OON-ON5N9
OON7 N#ON=N-N;N5OON7 N=N1 N1ON?ON1ON/ON5N9
>>>>        ON? N5OOON7N<N1 N<N5 ON7ON?ON?ON/N1 b N1OON. ON?O
N;N1N<N2N,N=N5N9 ON7 N<N5N3N1N;O
ON5ON7 ON.ON?
>>>>        ON?O N4N9N:N1N9N?O
ON1N9 ON? N;ON3N?.</p>
>>>>      </sec>
>>>>     </sec>
>>>>    </sec>
>>>>   </sec>
>>>>  </body>
>>>> </article>
>>>>> On May 4, 2022, at 2:42 PM, Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Vincent (and list),
>>>>>
>>>>> Yesterday after your presentation and during the JATS-Con social (or
happy) hour I complained that if you have a multiple-language document in
which you choose to tag your content with block-level items and their
translations side-by-side, you can't have translations for section titles.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking of someone who followed the "content items in two or more
languages" approach
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK579699/#lizzi-content-items-in-two-or-
more-languages) by adding a translation for each figure, table-wrap, p etc.
element that is allowed within a section, side by side.
>>>>>
>>>>> While you can have multiple figures, tables, paragraphs etc. in a row,
you can't provide translation elements for elements that are allowed exactly
once in a section, in particular, for the title element.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there's a workaround: You can have the title translations as inline
content in the title element, like so:
>>>>>
>>>>> <sec id="sec1">
>>>>>  <title><named-content content-type="title-content"
lang-group="sec1-content" xml:lang="en">English Title</named-content>
>>>>>    <named-content content-type="title-content" lang-group="sec1-content"
xml:lang="fr">Titre franC'ais</named-content>
>>>>>    <named-content content-type="title-content" lang-group="sec1-content"
xml:lang="de">Deutscher Titel</named-content></title>
>>>>>  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="en">Paragraph</p>
>>>>>  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="fr">Paragraphe</p>
>>>>>  <p lang-group="sec1-p1" xml:lang="de">Absatz</p>
>>>>> </sec>
>>>>>
>>>>> So I think it's feasible by and large to pursue a block-level
translation approach, with minor sacrifices where you need to process inline
translations.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Note: I'm not advocating such an approach, but it came up occasionally
when discussing how to tag multilingual content with customers.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerrit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gerrit Imsieke
>>>>> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Director
>>>>> le-tex publishing services GmbH
>>>>> Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>> Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510
>>>>> gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx, http://www.le-tex.de
>>>>>
>>>>> Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
>>>>> Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
>>>>>
>>>>> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Directors:
>>>>> Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
=============================================================================
======
>>>> B. Tommie Usdin			mailto: btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.	https://www.mulberrytech.com
>>>> Phone: 301/315-9631
>>>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>>>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for Prose
Documents
>>>>
=============================================================================
======
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gerrit Imsieke
>>> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Director
>>> le-tex publishing services GmbH
>>> Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany
>>> Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510
>>> gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx, http://www.le-tex.de
>>>
>>> Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
>>> Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
>>>
>>> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Directors:
>>> Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
>>>
>>>
>>
=============================================================================
======
>> B. Tommie Usdin			mailto: btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.	https://www.mulberrytech.com
>> Phone: 301/315-9631
>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for Prose
Documents
>>
=============================================================================
======
>
> --
> Gerrit Imsieke
> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Director
> le-tex publishing services GmbH
> Weissenfelser Str. 84, 04229 Leipzig, Germany
> Phone +49 341 355356 110, Fax +49 341 355356 510
> gerrit.imsieke@xxxxxxxxx, http://www.le-tex.de
>
> Registergericht / Commercial Register: Amtsgericht Leipzig
> Registernummer / Registration Number: HRB 24930
>
> GeschC$ftsfC<hrer / Managing Directors:
> Gerrit Imsieke, Svea Jelonek, Thomas Schmidt
>
>

=============================================================================
======
B. Tommie Usdin			mailto: btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.	https://www.mulberrytech.com
Phone: 301/315-9631
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.: A Consultancy Specializing in XML for Prose
Documents
=============================================================================
======

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