Subject: RE: The Cathedral and the Bizarre (was: do you use pi's?) From: "Didier PH Martin" <martind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:01:37 -0400 |
Hi Guy, <Comment> On the issue of attracting the development community to Mozilla, it would appear to me that Mozillazine.org is doing it's utmost to drive away all but the Mozilla zealot. Their obsession with anti MS rhetoric makes me start to gag everytime I go back there for updates. I tried politely bringing this up with the Webmaster but was "firmly" told that MS was as good as the devil incarnate. </Comment> <Reply> I cannot agree more :-) This anti Microsoft is not very constructive indeed. It seems that for a lot of people that to depreciate the enemy is how they gain the courage to kill him. There is also an other way to see it: as an opponent in a good game of tennis. If the opponent where not part of game, the game itself wouldn't be so fun. This is the good old sport attitude. Some in the project think that way. Unfortunately, the one who thought like that is gone. Anyway at least some in the project are open minded and do not have their brain restricted by bigotry. This minority try to learn from the opponent and try to get better themselves. But like I said, we are a minority. they other have a stronger criticism muscle than action muscles :-))) </reply> <Comment> As for XStyles.... I'm torn on this one. I can see what's being done with this, and it looks exciting (I'd certainly liek to have a play with this), but isn't this just a repeat of the mistake made with JavaScript Stylesheets (JSS)? I had an interesting chat with two Netscape developers regarding XUL, with a few E-mails bouncing back and forth, until I brought up MS HTC... I never got a reply nor heard from them again. </Comment> <reply> this is unfortunate that these people didn't took the occasion to expand their horizons. About XScripts: JavaScript style sheets where not based on the rule paradigm. What you have different here is that XScripts is inspired from diverse sources: DSSSL, XSL, XQL and procedural scrip languages. In fact, just imagine XSL but the body or content of a rule is instead a scriplet. The scriplet itself is not restricted to a single language (like the bigot would like to do). Why? Because software is before and foremost a cultural thing. A language and more particularly a computer language is a way to express. Some prefer to "speak" PERL and others "Python" and so on. Each group having very good reasons to use a particular language. So, this is why XScript tries not to be constrained to a single script language. Also, the goal is not to replace XSL but provide what XSL cannot provide: A full expression language. Also, some people are not comfortable with XSL language and are more comfortable with a procedural approach. Personally, I am trying to see how we can merge the two. For example we can have a template that can contain either XML construct in it or procedural constructs (mean here scripts). But for now, and also not to be excommunicated from the community by the inquisition, I do not merge both and keep these world separate. However, as a pet project, I still look with an open mind how I can merge both world with constructs people are familiar with. So, no this is not JavaScript style sheets again. The project is not driven by bigotry this time :-))) </reply> <Comment> [In comparisson to this during the beta I was contacted by a MS rep specifically to quiz me about areas of IE5 that caused difficulty, or that where lacking... inviting not repeling critique] </Comment> <reply> This should be the good behavior. You know Guy, The worse enemy Netscape always got wasn't Microsoft but Netscape itself :-)) </reply> <Comment> It would seem to me that if Mozilla wants to play in this area, that an implimentation of HTCs would serve the development community better, which already exist now as an independant W3C Note..... Having said that, I confess to a heavy bias in this, and if I'd been plating with XStyles first I'd probably be advocating that. </Comment> <reply> XScripts will work on IE too so, you'll get HTC. In fact, funny thing, it will work first on IE and then on Mozilla. This is because the only stable code I can use now is IE :-))) I started with Mozilla but got tired of seing my project jammed with broken builds and new bugs introduced. But as soon as we get the new platform stable enough the fun will start again. I cannot promise you HTC will part of the fun because this is not in my plate. But I can tell you that XScripts will gove you access to it on platforms where this is available. In fact, actually, I am experimenting with something: to give access within a rule body to the DOM directly so that as the rules are fired, the stuff gets displayed on the screen. There is no more intermediary steps of converting from XML to HTML and then interpreting HTML into layout. This way you play directly with DOM objects which are directly the layout objects. </Reply> <Comment> It also seems to me that is the .selectNodes(...) MS XML DOM extension was implimented by Mozilla, then the very diret equivelant of what presented bellow could be implimented wholly from within script. I should probably shut-up on this however until I get a closer look at XStyles. If you have any initial documentation of XStyles, I'd love to have a look at it, as it occurs to me it might prove useful in some work I'm facing.... I have to find a way of implimenting XLink interpretation on the server-side (ASP), converting XLink representations into something functional for delivery to the client-side. I was planing on implimenting a JavaScript class as a client-side linkManager, and delivering XLink interpretations as a JavaScript triggering anchor, with an instance of the class.... messy. </Comment> <Reply> As soon as I have some written material, I ship that to you for revision. And you feedback and criticism will be greatly appreciated. Don't worry, I not yet attained by the Rinos (ref: the famous Ionesco play). Simply said, I am not a bigot :-))) </reply> <Comment> All this was going to be implimented through a WSC (Windows Scripting Component... MS are really jumping all over this concept... like a HTC on steroids registerable as a COM class) on the server. Even if XStyles are a while off I'd appreciate a gander at some examples to at least grok the concept being played with. There are too many holes in the tapestry being woven that is XML at present, and we need all the tools we can get to patch it. OK, I confess ::blush:: that was a blatant attempt to get another quote up on Cafe con Leche... I feel dirty now. </Comment> <Reply> :-))) Active Scripts interface is indeed very practical and some people(the non-bigot part of Mozilla project) find this kind of interface should be replicated for Mozilla so that new script language could be added but shhhhhhh... not too loud, I could be excommunicated :-)))) </reply> Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.netfolder.com XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
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