Subject: Re: [niso-sts] Encoding Bibliography From: "B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 17:12:24 -0000 |
Hi DorothC)e b I wonbt even begin to address bwhy is it this wayb questions; there is a lot of history behind the current model, some of which I know and some of which I donbt know. Also, it doesnbt matter. If you want to suggest a change, suggest a change. https://groups.niso.org/apps/org/workgroup/sts-sc/add_comment.php?document_id =18492 However, those are headings, not paragraphs. Perhaps they are titles of sections, perhaps they are titles of reference lists; they are not paragraphs. If you are going to request a change based on this example it should be a change that allows the headings to be tagged as <title>, not <p>. b Tommie > On Oct 10, 2018, at 1:04 PM, DorothC)e Stadler doro@xxxxxxxxxxx <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi Tommie, > Well it helps in the sense that what I was doing initially (i.e. having a <sec sec-type=bbiblb> with the reference lists inside) is your first suggestion.. > However, this means that based on whether or not I want the references grouped into separate topics (Litteratur=Bibliography, the others are just group headings for the subsequent references), I will have to choose a different encoding option. This then again means that my standards will not all be encoded the same way and also that they are inconsistent with what ISO does. > > If the NISO schema would allow to add other elements between <ref> inside a <ref-list>, then I could just add the headings as <p>. So back to my question: why is NISO so restrictive? Is there a reason we cannot allow more flexibility inside a <ref-list> element? > Or, from another angle: why does NISO not bforceb a <sec> element above a <ref-list> (a bit like Gerrit described with his schematron rules)? This would allow everyone to encode the Bibliography section consistently and be able to easily choose to add as many <ref-list>s as required. I would also find it more consistent that Bibliography is encoded the same, regardless of location (you were mentioning sec-type=bbiblb should be used when Bibliography is not in the Back matter)... > > Kind regards > DorothC)e > > --------------------------------------------- > DorothC)e Stadler > > Rathenower Str. 38 > 10559 Berlin > Tel: +49 1525 840 85 93 > doro@xxxxxxxxxxx > > > >> On 10. Oct 2018, at 17:09, B Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> Hi DorothC)e b >> >> Based on your sample, I see two reasonable options: >> >> If bLitteraturb is the title of a structure that contains the references below it, you might use: >> >> <sec sec-type='bibl'> >> <title>Litteratur</title> >> <p>For dokumenter ...</p> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Norsk Standard</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Annen litteratur</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> </sec> >> >> >> or >> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Litteratur</title> >> <p>For dokumenter som det er gjort normative referanser til i teksten, se punkt 2 Normative referanser. </p> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Norsk Standard</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Annen litteratur</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> </ref-list> >> >> >> If bLitteraturb is the title of a peer to "Norsk Standardb and "Annen litteraturb then perhaps: >> >> <sec sec-type='bibl'> >> <title>...</title> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Litteratur</title> >> <p>For dokumenter ...</p> >> </ref-list> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Norsk Standard</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> <ref-list> >> <title>Annen litteratur</title> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> <ref><mixed-citation>...</mixed-citation></ref> >> </ref-list> >> </sec> >> >> Does that help? >> >> b Tommie >> >> >> >>> On Oct 10, 2018, at 9:35 AM, DorothC)e Stadler doro@xxxxxxxxxxx <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tommie, >>> Thanks for your answer on this, which I thought made sense when I read it first. Now that Ibm trying to implement this logic however I find myself with the challenge that there is no way to enter text in between references. >>> In our standards it often happens that the Bibliography is bsplitb into functional sections, see this example: >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- >>> Litteratur >>> >>> For dokumenter som det er gjort normative referanser til i teksten, se punkt 2 Normative referanser. >>> >>> Norsk Standard >>> >>> NS 8405 Norsk bygge- og anleggskontrakt >>> >>> NS-EN 536 Veibyggingsmaskiner b Asfaltblandeanlegg b Sikkerhetskrav >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Annen litteratur >>> >>> ICAO A14 (International Civil Aviation Organization): Annex 14 - Volume I - Aerodromes design and operations. Third edition. July 1999 >>> >>> Statens vegvesen HC%ndbok 025, Prosesskode 1 - Standard arbeidsbeskrivelse for vegkontrakter. Hovedprosess 1-7. Vegdirektoratet. Oslo, 2007 >>> >>> ... >>> >>> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb >>> >>> So how would I encode this with using <ref-list>? Should I then create a total of three <ref-lists>, the first one without any references in them to hold the first part, and then two more bchildb <ref-list> elements for the Norsk Standard and Annex literature parts? >>> >>> I have to be honest, I donbt quite see the usefulness of using <ref-list> directly rather than having a section with type bbiblb and having my <ref-list> elements in there. Obviously since ISO (and presumably CEN) are doing it this way too I would prefer to align, but donbt see how I can accommodate cases like the aboveb& Unless it is possible to change NISO to allow text and other elements between <ref> elements? Is there a reason why this was prohibited in the first place? >>> >>> Thanks for your continued help, I really appreciate how fast this group always responds! >>> Have a nice day. >>> DorothC)e >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>> DorothC)e Stadler >>> >>> Rathenower Str. 38 >>> 10559 Berlin >>> Tel: +49 1525 840 85 93 >>> doro@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 27. Sep 2018, at 18:41, Tommie Usdin btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello DorothC)e b >>>> >>>> It will take this community some time to develop best practices. >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the most semantically specific markup available is generally best. Since there is an element (<ref-list>) specific to your use and it is available in the location you want to put the bibliography, I suggest that you should use it. >>>> >>>> <sec sec-type=bbiblb> is available for those instances where there are bibliographies in other locations in the document. For example, some very large standards have bibliographies at the end of each major section/chapter, and I have heard that there are some standards that have bibliographies in other places in the body of the text. >>>> >>>> b Tommie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 27, 2018, at 12:34 PM, DorothC)e Stadler doro@xxxxxxxxxxx <niso-sts-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> I have a question about how to best encode the Bibliography as part of the back matter. >>>>> To me, the most logical thing to do is use <sec> with @sec-type=bbiblb. Now I see in the NISO documentation of <sec> that it should be used as follows: >>>>> b" Within the back matter (<back>) to tag material that has not been explicitly named as one of the other back matter components, that is, it is not named as an annex (<app>), an acknowledgment (<ack>), a bibliography (<ref-list>), etc. >>>>> >>>>> I am now confused. Should the bibliography always be encoded using <ref-list>, as it is also currently done by ISO using the ISOSTS? If so, why do we even have an @sec-type=bbiblb? >>>>> Any enlightenment would be much appreciated! >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> DorothC)e >>>>> --------------------------------------------- >>>>> DorothC)e Stadler >>>>> >>>>> Rathenower Str. 38 >>>>> 10559 Berlin >>>>> Tel: +49 1525 840 85 93 >>>>> doro@xxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >> >> ====================================================================== >> B. Tommie Usdin mailto:btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Mulberry Technologies, Inc. https://www.mulberrytech.com >> 17 West Jefferson Street Phone: 301/315-9631 >> Suite 207 Direct Line: 301/315-9634 >> Rockville, MD 20850 Fax: 301/315-8285 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in XML and SGML >> ====================================================================== >> > > ====================================================================== B. Tommie Usdin mailto:btusdin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Mulberry Technologies, Inc. https://www.mulberrytech.com 17 West Jefferson Street Phone: 301/315-9631 Suite 207 Direct Line: 301/315-9634 Rockville, MD 20850 Fax: 301/315-8285 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in XML and SGML ======================================================================
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