Re: [xsl] Initial whitespace in PI from XSLT, main body

["Dimitre Novatchev dnovatchev@xxxxxxxxx" <xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Wendell,

Sorry, I totally missed the "house-rule" phrase, as it seemed buried
further down the text of your message.

Yes, within a company / organisation, they could adopt whatever house rules
they choose. As far as these remain closed intin the organisation.

Thanks,
Dimitre


On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 7:57 AM Wendell Piez wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hey Dimitre,
>
> A bit confused - were you (not) taking me to suggest I thought the rules
> should be changed, or that I was proposing Syd adapt to the rules -- and
> the (faulty) implementations -- as they currently are?
>
> My "house style" suggestion is along the lines of adapting to both the
> current rules, and the reality that along the edges, not all deployed
> tooling works exactly the same. But your critique also seems to be that we
> are not (as a community) aggressive enough in changing the rules, whatever
> the effects that has in forcing obsolescence?
>
> Meanwhile, making it explicit that whatever the specs say, you can forgive
> a little whitespace munging from your tools ("I don't care about whitespace
> so you are free to munge"), seems to me no worse than a rule that says
> "whoa don't mess with the whitespace in my PIs, since I might want to
> inject code of some nature" (always a great idea).
>
> Cheers,
> Wendell
>
> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 2:50 PM Dimitre Novatchev dnovatchev@xxxxxxxxx <
> xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> > Dimitre, how so?
>>
>> Wendell,
>>
>> Do we want the behavior of almost all current XML processing tools to
>> suddenly become "incompliant"?
>>
>> I certainly don't care one way or the other, as I have no code invested
>> in using PI's values, but maybe other people's existing tools/suites would
>> have to be updated in order to become conformant with the new rules, and
>> the user's assets that are relying on these, ...,  and some may never do
so?
>>
>> I personally would prefer that the way the various XML-related
>> specifications are maintained were not so conservative in regards to
>> maintaining backwards compatibility, but this is the reality. Contrast
this
>> with C# or Java/Scala where it is  quite frequent to have some features
>> made obsolete and no longer supported. The lucky 31st century
C#/Java/Scala
>> programmers will not have to comply with obscure and unexplainable "rules"
>> that originated thousands of years ago and had no other reasons whatsoever
>> to being enforced through eternity except to only preserve "backwards
>> compatibility"...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dimitre
>>
>> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 11:20 AM Wendell Piez wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
>> xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Dimitre, how so?
>>>
>>> Just because current tools preserve whitespace (in PIs) is no reason you
>>> can't have a rule that says it should not always be assumed to be
>>> persistent, within your data set or processing scope.
>>>
>>> There are actually places where this kind of thing matters. For example,
>>> I would not want to assert such a (house) rule over comments, mainly
>>> because if I tolerate comments at all in the data, I had better tolerate
>>> line breaks, pseudo-markup and ASCII art, or I am apt to lose much of the
>>> information in the comments. (Am I not?)
>>>
>>> However, having rules about the use and "significance" of whitespace
>>> within markup (indeed within differentiated forms of markup) is so normal
>>> as to be a perennial FAQ.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Wendell
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 12:57 PM Dimitre Novatchev dnovatchev@xxxxxxxxx <
>>> xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Maybe the solution here is to introduce a new house rule, namely
>>>> whitespace in PIs is never semantically significant,
>>>> > at least without further specification of the PI or family of
>>>> PIs, and hence is fair game for reducing or rewriting.
>>>>
>>>> This will violate the current rules, which eliminate only the leading
>>>> whitespace and leave intact any interim or even trailing whitespace.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dimitre
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 6:46 AM Wendell Piez wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
>>>> xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Syd and XSL-List,
>>>>>
>>>>> "The client may not even notice that all of her PIs have lost a
>>>>> leading space after her files are 'fixed' ..." indeed!
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe the solution here is to introduce a new house rule, namely
>>>>> whitespace in PIs is never semantically significant, at least without
>>>>> further specification of the PI or family of PIs, and hence is fair
game
>>>>> for reducing or rewriting.
>>>>>
>>>>> From this point of view, normalization can be considered a feature not
>>>>> a bug. The fact that the rule is not in the data model specs does not
mean
>>>>> it can't hang on your wall. It might be a good rule to have for other
>>>>> reasons too. I am not proposing that everyone adopt it. (Maybe there
are
>>>>> counter use cases.) But it might be nice for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Wendell
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 3:59 AM Bauman, Syd s.bauman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
>>>>> xsl-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the thoughts, Dimitre. Could also use some other character
>>>>>> (like b  (U+2420) or b$ (U+2424)) and convert it later. But in fact I
have no
>>>>>> need to force a whitespace character on output. If I donbt mention
it, the
>>>>>> client may not even notice that all of her PIs have lost a leading
space
>>>>>> after her files are bfixedb with my XSLT. But the spaces are
summarily
>>>>>> unimportant. (Although it does make me wonder how they got there in
the
>>>>>> first place. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> Syd, I see two ways (if you really need to) to maintain a PI whose
>>>>>> string value starts with a whitespace character:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   1. Enclose this value in some strippable non-whitespace characters
>>>>>> (say apostrophes or quotes), or,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   2. If the value is guaranteed not to end with a space character,
>>>>>> just use the reversed string value, and when you get that in your
code,
>>>>>> reverse it back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
>>>>>> EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/174322>
>>>>>> (by email)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendell -at- nist -dot- gov...
>>>>> ...wendellpiez.com... ...pellucidliterature.org... ...pausepress.org...
>>>>> ...github.com/wendellpiez... ...gitlab.coko.foundation/wendell...
>>>>> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
>>>>> EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/782854>
>>>>> (by email)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Dimitre Novatchev
>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>> Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> Never fight an inanimate object
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
>>>> biggest mistake of all
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>> Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
>>>> you're doing is work or play
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they
>>>> write all patents, too? :)
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> Sanity is madness put to good use.
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.
>>>>
>>>> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
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(by
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendell -at- nist -dot- gov...
>>> ...wendellpiez.com... ...pellucidliterature.org... ...pausepress.org...
>>> ...github.com/wendellpiez... ...gitlab.coko.foundation/wendell...
>>> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
>>> EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/782854> (by
>>> email)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Dimitre Novatchev
>> ---------------------------------------
>> Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
>> ---------------------------------------
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
>> -------------------------------------
>> Never fight an inanimate object
>> -------------------------------------
>> To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
>> biggest mistake of all
>> ------------------------------------
>> Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
>> -------------------------------------
>> You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
>> you're doing is work or play
>> -------------------------------------
>> To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
>> -------------------------------------
>> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
>> -------------------------------------
>> Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they
>> write all patents, too? :)
>> -------------------------------------
>> Sanity is madness put to good use.
>> -------------------------------------
>> I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.
>>
>> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
>> EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/174322> (by
>> email)
>>
>
>
> --
> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendell -at- nist -dot- gov...
> ...wendellpiez.com... ...pellucidliterature.org... ...pausepress.org...
> ...github.com/wendellpiez... ...gitlab.coko.foundation/wendell...
> XSL-List info and archive <http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list>
> EasyUnsubscribe <http://lists.mulberrytech.com/unsub/xsl-list/782854> (by
> email <>)
>


--
Cheers,
Dimitre Novatchev
---------------------------------------
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
---------------------------------------
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
-------------------------------------
Never fight an inanimate object
-------------------------------------
To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
biggest mistake of all
------------------------------------
Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
-------------------------------------
You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
you're doing is work or play
-------------------------------------
To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
-------------------------------------
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
-------------------------------------
Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they write
all patents, too? :)
-------------------------------------
Sanity is madness put to good use.
-------------------------------------
I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.