Re: Aw: Re: [stella] moving stella from biglist

Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [stella] moving stella from biglist
From: Russ Perry Jr <slapdash@xxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:20:47 -0600
At 12:46 AM -0500 11/16/04, Chris Wilkson wrote:
> Russ, why so strongly opposed to moving the list?

Because I fear that other services may be LESS reliable than
Biglist.  Not initially, but in the long run.  I think it makes
more since to stick with an organization whose business is
running mailing lists than with an individual who could become
too busy -- even if the interest is still there, which isn't
guaranteed to last -- to be able to continue the service.  I
don't say this as an offense to Thomas or anyone else who has
offered their services, but it's simply a fact of life.  So,
I think riding out current difficulties is STILL better than
trying to switch to something new, and possibly have to do it
again, and again.

Plus, we can put backup processes in place for extra reliability.
The way I see it, the only REAL issue with not having archives
is the searchability (I mean, come on, I save all posts, don't
you guys do that too?), and it would only take a mirror like the
Dig to offer that.

> And we absolutely cannot have messages just dropped, whether or
> not they're in a holding bin somewhere.  They're as good as lost.

They're not lost, so don't say they are.  If they were lost, how
would I have been able to report the sender, date & subject?
Now, if it turns out they can't be recovered, I'll bitch with
you, but until then, let's be happy that (1) they're there and
should appear in the archives, and (2) by finding this problem,
we can make the reliability of the service BETTER for the future.

If you'll allow me to bitch (and I don't mean to single anyone
out, Chris or anyone) it's that posts don't show up but people
don't tell me right away -- they let it fester a couple days,
or a week, or worse, and then, when they finally DO say something,
it's a post to the list when they're already mad.  Please, if
there's something wrong, let me know right away.  That doesn't
mean that I can do anything right away, or that biglist can do
something right away, but it is at least quicker than waiting
to see.

At 3:23 AM -0500 11/16/04, cybergoth@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> Basically I think if biglist don't want to host us anymore,
> they should just say that instead of sabotaging us until
> we're forced to go...

Please.  I don't believe this to be the case at all, so let's
not go spreading rumors.

At 4:06 AM -0500 11/16/04, Andrew Davie wrote:
>> I do NOT plan on moving stella.  Despite some recent problems,
>> biglist HAS been reliable in the past.

> So, Russ.... do you consider Stella your baby?

Not as such, no.  I have no power to stop anybody from leaving,
and if everyone does, Stella will die, and in the scheme of
things, it will be no big deal, as long as the place everyone
goes STAYS running.  But I will not help with admin tasks etc,
as I have too many other things going on.  That's not to say I
won't help at all, but I can't afford to put my time into it,
and I will stay with Stella as long as there's interest.

But as I stated above, me real concern is, believe it or not,
reliability.  The archives have been down for 5 months, and
yes that's bad, but meanwhile the list HAS been working, and
has been for 7 years.  How many other project lists do you
know that have last that long?

There HAVE been other problems too, but some of those reported
weren't the problems they've seemed to be, so things have
actually been even better than they've seemed.  I RARELY get any
mails from people to help pinpoint problems reported (though I
want to thank those who HAVE) which leads me to believe that
most problems really weren't the problem they seemed to be, or
they weren't as bad as people first thought.  The archives APPEAR
to be the only real problem that hasn't been dealt with quickly.

> You seem to be agressively protecting 'the property'.

I'm trying to say that sometimes "the devil you know" is better;
and even then, I don't think Biglist is the devil that some of
you DO seem to think it is.  Perhaps it's an irrational fear, but
I really don't want to see the development list die out because
the alternatives might end up to be less reliable over the long
run.  I've seen too many hobbyists get derailed over the years.
Some of you might not know me outside the list, but I've been
a collector/fan/hobbyist/supporter for YEARS and I've seen a lot
of things die and go away.  I don't want the 2600 development
community be one of those things.

> What sorts of copyright claims/issues will we run up against,
> I wonder, when we attempt to copy the archive to another list...

I think it's understood that if you post material to a public
list, you retain copyright of your words, but distribution
and archiving rights are implicitly granted to the administrators
and/or keepers.  You're doing this for posterity folks.  There's
no profit here, and if anyone wants to profit from this list,
it's up to THEM to contact the original authors and ask permission
to reproduce their words in any context outside of the list as
a whole.  Oh, and neither I -- nor Biglist I assume -- grant
permission to TAKE the list as a whole and sell it for profit.
So, we're doubly covered there, but moving/copying archives
as non-profit is perfectly fine.  (Caveat: I am not a lawyer,
nor do I want to be one).
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