Re: [EXT] Re: [jats-list] Preferred pronouns for authors

["Mark Donoghue m.donoghue@xxxxxxxx" <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Very wise advice Debbie.

Speaking strictly from a grammatical/technical point-of-view, pronouns are
complicated :-)

Until a proper analysis can be done, the advice I would give to my
organization is to avoid semantically overloading elements not designed to
hold the information. Come to think of it, that's my advice in every
situation :-)

I find the TEI solution woefully under-engineered. Clever in places, but
insufficient. For example, the string "they/them/their" is not machine
readable in any useful sense. It's not deterministic. You cannot write code
that reliably makes use of that information except to just display the
entire string.

If the intention for including pronouns is for display, I would use a
name-alternative tag with a string-name child element, like so:

<name-alternatives>
  <string-name specific-use="display" xml:lang="en">Robert Dobbs
(they/them)</string-name>
<name-alternatives>

Any other reason for encoding pronoun information, such as conveying the
lived experience of the author (as noted in the TEI example), will require
specific support from the standard -- otherwise it won't be meaningful from
either a cultural or technological perspective.

-Mark

- -- --- ----- -------- -------------
Mark Donoghue
IEEE
(732) 562-6045
m.donoghue@xxxxxxxx

IEEE - Advancing Technology for Humanity


On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:26 PM Debbie Lapeyre dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Just wanting to point out that:
>
>   1) Gender is not binary, not even in some grammars.
>
>   2) Some authors (admittedly I have this 3rd hand, so it could just be
>      an urban legend) are not willing to answer the gender question for
>      their publishers. ("What difference does my gender make to my
> science?)
>
>   3) A choice of pronouns is at least a choice, fully given. They could
>      always refuse to answer that too, but are less likely to.
>
>   4) Perhaps the XML document instance is not the best place to record
>      all you know about an author. Perhaps a production database?
>
> Very unofficially
>
> --Debbie
>
> > On Dec 14, 2020, at 6:27 PM, O'Brien, Daniel S. dobrien@xxxxxxx <
> jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Agreed with Pieter that a primary need is for expressing both
> grammatical and self-identified gender pronouns.
> >
> >
> >
> > I expect some publishers, including ACS, would embrace having options
> within JATS like these to identify a contributor's pronouns within the
> article metadata, with a further option to designate whether the pronouns
> should be displayed next to the person's name within the article output.
> This would let publishers better serve the needs of some communities of
> authors who may find this valuable.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding whether to optimize the tagging model towards systematic or
> automated processing versus a display oriented approach, this seems to be
> an evolving topic that is very personal for some.  Forcing a selection of
> pronoun options within a predefined scheme b even with the positive
intent
> to support automation b could be seen as especially counterproductive for
> those to whom this issue deeply matters; these folks often are already
> trying to break through other predefined gender expectations elsewhere.
> For this reason, I wonder if a display-oriented approach, perhaps just a
> pronoun string, could be beneficial for now.  Perhaps localization couple
> be handled as normally (@lang) if not defined as an attribute?
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > Dan ObBrien
> > Assistant Director, Publication Technology
> > 2540 Olentangy River Rd. | Columbus | OH 43202
> > T 614-447-3610 | Pronouns: he/him
> > pubs.acs.org
> > bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
> > ACS Chemistry for Life
> > American Chemical Society
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Jennifer Flint jen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
> jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, December 14, 2020 7:42 AM
> > To: jats-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [EXT] Re: [jats-list] Preferred pronouns for authors
> >
> >
> >
> > [Actual Sender is jats-list-return-1473-dobrien=
> acs.org@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >
> > I agree that adding an attribute for gender would be much easier to
> process systematically. Each author can absolutely choose to which gender
> they would be identified in all such cases, but, the reality is that many
> languages use female versions of a noun to identify a single female or
> group of females and a masculine form of the noun to identify a group of
> all males or a mixed group of authors, so a <contrib-group> with <contrib
> gender="female"> and <contrib gender="male"> requires a different display
> than a <contrib-group> with only <contrib gender="female"> children. The
> biological gender of the individuals is irrelevant, but it is inaccurate to
> identify the group using the incorrect form of the noun.
> >
> >
> >
> > The difficulty with adding a plain text <role> to each <contrib> and
> <contrib-group> is that it cannot be localized, so if a reader wants to
> view the article metadata in French, it cannot be easily localized if the
> <role> has been captured in English.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jen
> >
> >
> >
> > jflintcreative.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2020, at 13:00, Randall, Laura (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [E]
> laura.randall@xxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > I think it is a pity we have lengthy discussions about self-identified
> gender and completely disregard biological gender as though it is some kind
> of taboo
> >
> >
> >
> > (disclaimer: This comment is from me personally, representing only
> myself and not my necessarily employer)
> >
> >
> >
> > I think itbs more a pity that webd chose to base how we address
someone
> strictly on their chromosomal makeup rather than how they self-identify.
> Ibm not a linguist, but I would doubt that the languages basing articles
on
> gender are actually required to base it on biological gender determined by
> their chromosomes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I see choosing to record biological gender over a self-identified gender
> is dismissive of the struggles of individuals suffering from gender
> dysphoria. I believe this kind of action is the source of many of the
> challenges faced by an entire community. If you had a trans author with a
> chosen name, would you require them to publish under their dead name? No,
> of course not. So why would you force their biological sex to be part of
> how theybre identified in your publication?
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________
> >
> > Laura Randall (she/her)
> >
> >
> >
> > JATS-List info and archive
> > EasyUnsubscribe (by email)
>
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> Deborah A Lapeyre              mailto:dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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