Re: [jats-list] Preferred pronouns for authors

["Pieter Lamers pieter.lamers@xxxxxxxxxxxx" <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Actually I'm not interested in biological gender, just in grammatical 
gender, which coincides with self-identified gender. It's just that a 
gender property is out of bounds but a pronoun which is the spell out of 
such a property is not, which I find strange and problematic. If someone 
has a problem with a specified gender it can be /unspecified/, but if 
one identifies with the female gender, then it is not possible to record 
this in a language/term neutral way.

Best
Pieter

On 14/12/2020 13:00, Randall, Laura (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [E] 
laura.randall@xxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > I think it is a pity we have lengthy discussions about 
> self-identified gender and completely disregard biological gender as 
> though it is some kind of taboo
>
> (disclaimer: This comment is from me personally, representing only 
> myself and not my necessarily employer)
>
> I think itbs more a pity that webd chose to base how we address 
> someone strictly on their chromosomal makeup rather than how they 
> self-identify. Ibm not a linguist, but I would doubt that the 
> languages basing articles on gender are actually required to base it 
> on biological gender determined by their chromosomes.
>
> I see choosing to record biological gender over a self-identified 
> gender is dismissive of the struggles of individuals suffering from 
> gender dysphoria. I believe this kind of action is the source of many 
> of the challenges faced by an entire community. If you had a trans 
> author with a chosen name, would you require them to publish under 
> their dead name? No, of course not. So why would you force their 
> biological sex to be part of how theybre identified in your publication?
>
> Best,
>
> Laura
>
> ________________________
>
> Laura Randall (she/her)
>
> *From:* Pieter Lamers pieter.lamers@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2020 2:13 AM
> *To:* jats-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [jats-list] Preferred pronouns for authors
>
> Hi Debbie,
>
> Thanks for pulling the minutes from a similar request. /Out of scope 
> /is an easy answer of course. It just means that we will need to 
> continue to use a workaround for storing information needed to get to 
> an accurate presentation.
>
> I know grammar and gender is not easy. That's why I need a flag rather 
> than a spell-out field. I need to calculate plural, masc/fem dependent 
> on the 'other' if there is more than one author, and forms in other 
> languages than the language the article was in.
>
> I think it is a pity we have lengthy discussions about self-identified 
> gender and completely disregard biological gender as though it is some 
> kind of taboo. But that's probably me being Dutch.
>
> Best
> Pieter
>
> On 13/12/2020 22:05, Debbie Lapeyre dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>         On Dec 13, 2020, at 1:00 AM, Pieter Lamerspieter.lamers@xxxxxxxxxxxx  <mailto:pieter.lamers@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  <jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  <mailto:jats-list-service@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>
>         As a NoENL publisher active in humanities I would like to reiterate on the fact that we would need <sex> (or @sex or @gender) just as much or even more than <persPronoun>: in languages like German and French, a heading like Author's address must be differentiated for authors who identify with or simply are of female gender (and I think the same would go for English if we were to record movies instead of articles, with the Actor/Actress distinction).
>
>         Therefore, if anybody feels the need to amend the data model towards the inclusion of <persPronoun>, please also consider the simple linguistic reality in other languages than English;B  A point I've also made during my appearances in JATS Con 2016 and 2019. Now we work around this problem with @content-type = 'female'.
>
>         Pieter
>
>         (NoENL is of course Not Only English Language, but everybody in this audience got that, right?)
>
>         On 11/12/2020 17:02, Debbie Lapeyredalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  <mailto:dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>
>     The request for a @gender attribute was made on the JATS form
>
>     on the NISO site. Here is the JATS Standing Committee's reply:
>
>     JATS Standing Committee Minutes
>
>     Request Denied: Add contributor @gender attribute
>
>     Two use cases were described as rationales for this request:
>
>      B B B  - To describe the gender of a contributor in order to construct
>
>      B B B B B  grammatically correct descriptions of the contributor roles,
>
>      B B B B B B for use in sentences (e.g., female: codirectrice and
>
>      B B B B B  male: codirecteur in French).
>
>           
>
>      B B B -B  To use this information to produce scientometric indicators
>
>      B B B B B B based on authorbs gender.
>
>     Recommendation
>
>      B B B  - Regarding the mechanics of making a grammatical sentence for
>
>      B B B B B  production, we appreciate the requirement, but feel that JATS
>
>      B B B B B B already contains a mechanism to do this: the <role>
>
>      B B B B B  element. (See XML-tagged sample below.)
>
>      B B  -B  Regarding the scientometric request: Collection of such data is
>
>      B B B B B B out of scope for JATS.
>
>     XML Example
>
>     <contrib>
>
>      B  <name>
>
>      B B B  <surname>Bastin</surname>
>
>      B B B  <given-names>Georges L.</given-names>
>
>      B  </name>
>
>      B  <role>codirecteur</role>
>
>      B  </contrib>
>
>        
>
>     <contrib>
>
>      B  <name>
>
>      B B B  <surname>St-Pierre</surname>
>
>      B B B  <given-names>JosC)e</given-name>
>
>      B  </name>
>
>     <role>codirectrice</role>
>
>     </contrib>
>
>     -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>     And, it seems to me (Debbie Lapeyre) that gender (biological) is
>
>     a very complicated issue. Even for grammar purposes, this is complex.
>
>     --Debbie Lapeyre
>
>     ================================================================
>
>     Deborah A Lapeyremailto:dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  <mailto:dalapeyre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
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> -- 
> Pieter Lamers
> John Benjamins Publishing Company
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-- 
Pieter Lamers
John Benjamins Publishing Company
Postal Address: P.O. Box 36224, 1020 ME AMSTERDAM, The Netherlands
Visiting Address: Klaprozenweg 75G, 1033 NN AMSTERDAM, The Netherlands
Warehouse: Kelvinstraat 11-13, 1446 TK PURMEREND, The Netherlands
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web: www.benjamins.com